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[Wendy65]

Hi all,

I just wanted to share that I am really struggling at the moment. I feel depressed and anxious most of the time. I have a stressful job and I am feeling that I need to move to a less stressful one. But I have worked years in my field and I worry about if changing my job is the right thing to do. It will mean less money and I am concerned about that.

I wake in the morning feeling tense. I can literally feel my face is tight and I dread the day ahead.

I am eating all the wrong foods. I am so lucky to have a supportive husband though. 

I can't seem to enjoy anything and when I go out I want to come home again. I don't want to socialise but my husband forces me to (in  a nice way) and I do sometimes feel better for a short while. But I love solitude at the moment. Just sitting and reading helps and stroking my cat. But I can't do this for next few years!!

I feel fat and frumpy. Joint aches and knees knackered. I am on Elleste.

Is there anyone who feels similar. I have tried anti depressants in the past but they don't really agree with me and make me feel worse. I am worried about being off sick from work as I feel this may mean that I lose my confidence even more and don't go back. I used to be so confident and now stress about my job and that I am no longer any good at it and if anyone asks my opinion on anything I feel that I am useless and worry what people think of me.

Help!!   

[rebel2]

I can totally emphathise.   I have suffered badly with anxiety and depression for the last three years and also tried ADs but they made me feel flat and lifeless. 

I find stress harder to handle, yet I used to thrive on it.   I also feel old and frumpy.

My defence has been exercise - after a life of debauchery I am caffeine, nicotine and mainly alcohol free.  And I run three times a week and do yoga.  It helps, but can't say it cures.   Have tried CBT but concentrating on it made it worse, so am thinking of some more general counselling.   

I would be wary of a drastic job change until you are able to see things rationally.  I made a drastic change four years ago and it was about a year before I felt the effects and realised I had become rather isolated and lonely, which didn't help.

Sending you positive thoughts in the meantime.

[babyjane]

Hello Wendy, you so need help but first of all you need a 

The fact so many of us have been through this and still go through it won't make you feel better, but might make you feel less isolated.

Do you eat the wrong foods because they are comforting and ease you emotionally?  that's what I did for a long time but it actually makes things worse as, if the foods are sugary, it gives you a rush and then you crash as your body struggles to process it.  It is hard though, very hard.

HRT didn't work for me, although I tried it twice, because my anxt and depression was there long before menopause although meno did make it worse.  My way forward was with an anti depressant (felt worse before I felt better, you really do have to find the right one and persevere).  It took about 3 months along with psychotherapy.  Once I was more stable I could evaluate if I wanted to try HRT again and I didn't.  that was 2 years ago and I am still moving forward, still learning and recovering.

This forum if so supportive it makes the whole thing less isolating.  Browse round and join in, don't be afraid as no question is too small and no comment is ever seen as silly x

[Wendy65]

Thank you for your comments. Yes, I comfort eat and can feel that I need a radical overhaul of my diet but I am not in the right frame of mind to tackle it. I feel disappointed that I can't  excercise, run, due to my knees.

I have made another G.P appt to discuss anti depressants and then hopefully I can get on track with diet issues and excercise more.

Thank you x

[CLKD]

I would die without my anti-depressant medication and anti-anxiety medication  and despite feelings on MM, many ladies require these along side if necessary, HRT.  Do make a list of symptoms i.e. early morning waking, lack of interest etc. to discuss with your GP.  Even if hormones are part of the cause for depression, once ADs kick in one can make an informed choice about the need for HRT.

Let us know how you get on.  Don't worry too much about what you are eating, the important thing is to eat - once you feel better emotionally you can, with your husband, discuss what to buy and cook.

As oestrogen levels drop off the muscles may become lax = aches and pains  as well as causing the body to become dry: nostrils, eyes, ears, vagina  . skin 

 

[Hurdity]

Hi there

Sorry to hear about your feelings.

Looking back at your posts I see you are only on 1 mg Elleste and have a Mirena coil. How long have you had the coil and do you think you are tolerating it well? Have you any idea where you are in menopause? If you are nearing menopause then it sounds like you would benefit from an increase in oestrogen, and I would urge you to try a patch (Estradot if possible) or gel to improve your mood.

If you are fairly new to the coil then this could also be impacting your mood (the progestogen in it) and may need a higher dose of oestrogen to mask the negative side effects. Alternatively have you thought of completely changing HRT and going for patch or gel with separate progesterone, ideally on a longer cycle or shorter duration (under supervision) if you are progesterone intolerant.

An increased dose of oestrogen should also help with joint aches.

It does also sound like you need to take the first steps into eating properly, losing weight and taking more exercise, all of which will do you far more good and make you feel better, than any amount of medication.

Try and start to take some steps NOW by setting yourself some goals (a target weight, changing your diet) and the small things you need to do to achieve them - just little by little - eg going for a daily 10 min walk, cutting out a food item from your diet or adding something like an extra pieces of fruit and no biscuits for a week ( to start with) or something simple. The most important thing is to feel good about yourself and losing weight and getting fit is the best way to do this. Then think about a hair-cut, new clothes, little treats (not unhealthy food!) .... What you eat is very very important to the future new you!! Try to give yourself something else to do when you are tempted to comfort eat - or have a huge pile of strawberries and peaches or something for a start - just to pick at when you get the urge - at least less fattening than biscuits or crisps or whatever you are comfort eating!

I'm not sure that ADs are the answer - if your HRT is not right then you need to make sure that is doing what it's supposed to do first I would say, especially if your decreased mood is due to low oestrogen.

Anyway whatever you decide - good luck with your decision and new goals!! If we can help further - do let us know

Hurdity x

[coldethyl]

Do go back to your doctor and ask for a referral to some counselling - ask for someone who is able to do some mindfulness with you - things have in many areas moved in from bog standard cbt and now include mindfulness as a way of helping cope with the terrible turmoil that anxiety and depression can bring. There are apps like headspace that might be a start whilst you are waiting.
I can't comment on HRT as cancer has made it verboten in my case and tbh I think if women had more support generally with health issues at this time, it might not always be the knee jerk solution. I can comment on diet as I'm type 2 diabetic too and would say please don't replace crisps with so called healthy fruit - fruit is just nature's candy and will cause blood sugar spikes just as easily as crap processed carbs. Modern day fruit is nothing like what was thought good to eat in past as we've all developed supersweet taste buds. Instead focus on good fats in your diet from dairy and meat and avocados etc. A good start is watching those dr in the house shows and reading dr Maholtra's Pioppi diet book - he's a cardiologist and recommends shift away from carbs for heart health as are more and more doctors. This book also has a do at home exercise section which is quite good too as a starting point as lot of tai chi movements that are not too bad on joints.
Wishing you well. It's hard and might require a multi factorial approach to get you on your way xx

[Wendy65]

Thanks everyone,

I'm so confused with all the different types of HRT etc.

Hurdity - I have had my mirena for a long while and my moods were fine until I hit 51 a year ago. Since then, I have gone down hill, mentally and emotionally.

I really don't know where to start. But think a good start will be to cut out sweet foods etc.   

Still confused and really think that even though my g. P is helpful and sympathetic that the menopause requires more specialist help.

W x

[CLKD]

Go to your GP and ask for anti-depressant medication if you are depressed. It does NOT matter what is causing the depression which is an illness - it is the biggest killer of men between 22 and 45 and no one asks them to take HRT!

Having suffered from depression since 1988 and having found medication that eases symptoms, I can now make informed choices.  Many ladies: as shown on this Forum: take HRT along-side ADs and anti-anxiety medications.  Someone who is depressed couldn't care less about weight issues or exercise, in fact at my worst I couldn't get out of bed.  Please don't allow yourself to get that low!  I would crawl around the house because I didn't have enough energy to get off the floor  .  The longer that the brain has been depressed the longer it takes for medication to take effect.  Been there  ........

Best thing might be to make a list of your symptoms and discuss with a GP or Practice Nurse which symptom you would like to ease first?  Make a note of your last monthly period, any hot flushes, nausea, low moods, anxiety feelings ........ make a double appt. if necessary.


Maybe this Forum should be HRT Matters? 

[babyjane]

I feel uncomfortable that the OP is being told not to take ADs, for whatever reason.  this is failing to see the bigger picture.  HRT may well help and no one is denying that some ladies regain their quality of life quite quickly with oestrogen replacement.  However we must look at each member holistically and as an individualy rather than trying to adopt a 'one size fits all' approach.

ADs are not the enemy and can be helpful in getting the emotions back on an even keel, from where the patient is then in a position to make informed choices about further treatment once they are feeling better.  Depression is an illness, namely a deficiency of serotonin in the brain and oestrogen will not replace serotonin any more than it would have replaced my thyroid deficiency.  Sometimes the low moods are not necessarily down to just low oestrogen.  Mine originally was down to thyroid levels that were through the floor (TSH of 52!) no amount of HRT would have sorted that one (although thyroxine is a hormone but you know what I mean)

It is vital to really 'hear' what some of these ladies are saying and not jump to conclusions that HRT is the be all and end all of menopause treatment even though, for many, it can be.

[CLKD]

Also - having seen on here how many ladies have to try several types of HRT B4 finding one which suits may mean that a sufferer of depression - regardless of reason - gets worse and worse  .  Which may then take longer to sort oneself over-all. 

Let us know how you get on Wendy65.  Read what is suggested and take what feels appropriate for you right now?

[Mary G]

Wendy65, I agree with others who have said that perhaps you need both HRT and ADs.  Often there is a twofold problem, physical symptoms of oestrogen deficiency AND depression which may or may not have anything to do with hormones. 

If you don't get a sufficient lift from HRT then chances are you need ADs too.  As CLKD says, it can take a long time to find the right HRT regime and unfortunately in most cases, said HRT has to be taken with progesterone which many (but obviously not all) women don't get on with or at the very least find it lowers their mood.  So a lot of women feel they get a good mood lift and boost while on the oestrogen only part of HRT but then get a low mood/drag effect when they introduce the progesterone part of the regime.  Are you on the combined version of Elleste?  If so, the norethisterone it contains is strong and known for lowering mood.

I know at lot of women can simply go to their GP, get a prescription for HRT that works immediately and then get on with their lives but often they only have moderate menopause symptoms.  As you say, the menopause is a specialist area and it is not always that simple for everyone particularly if they have depression/anxiety or they are progesterone intolerant. 

Perhaps you need to review the type of HRT you are using and then consider a mild AD?

[Hurdity]

Hi again Wendy65

Despite what babyjane thinks she has read  – you can see that no-one has “told you not to take ADs” nor “failed to see the bigger picture”. We each give what advice we can according to expertise and in relation to the members posting.

Maybe this Forum should be HRT Matters?

... and what a strange thing to say when Wendy is talking about her HRT!!!

Anyway Wendy, thanks for telling us a bit more about your HRT regime ( Mary G you will see she is on Mirena).

From what you say your low moods sound entirely consistent with decreasing oestrogen as a result of menopause – if you only started feeling like this for the first time at 51 and have been feeling worse as time progresses – with no life events to precipitate this.

Yes it is confusing with all the different types of HRT as you say but those of us who know a bit about the different types can help you decide. If you look at the Treatment tabs ( pale green banner) – top pale green banner, and HRT preparations – all the different types are listed there (scroll down for patches and gel): https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/treatafter.php

As I said in my previous post, as you have a Mirena, then in your case it is very easy to add oestrogen at the right dose – and you may well need quite a high dose – although it is advisable to start low and gradually increase (over a few weeks until you feel better). I also said you would benefit from a patch or gel – transdermal oestrogen is absorbed better and without some of the side effects of tablet oestrogen. I have only ever used Estradot and have felt brilliant on this since my early 50's. There can be some supply issues – but as your GP is sympathetic – do please go back asap and ask for a patch ( if you are happy with this) starting with 50 mcg and if necessary increasing after a few weeks.

You said you felt bad on ADs so as I said – probably not best to try these yet but get your HRT right. As an aside - you may be aware that HRT and not ADs are the first line of treatment for the symptoms of menopause – including low mood and anxiety, for those who are able to take it so it's great that you have been given this – just need try a different type and delivery method. Good to hear you have a sympathetic GP – so hopefully s/he will let you have what you ask for – but maybe there is also a menopause clinic near you if you need further specialist advice? Do read as much as you can! There is also the possibility of a specialist consultation with Dr Heather Currie (gynaecologist who funded and manages this website) – at a cost of £25 (facility via home page).

At the same time make very small changes to your diet a bit at a time – I know about the sugar thing but I thought it would be an easier transition to go from unhealthy sweet snacks to healthy fruit (not dried fruit) in the first instance – if you are not diabetic. Rather than straight to carrot and cottage cheese!

Can you also find some seated exercises or standing and sitting until you feel fitter? As you lose weight and increase your oestrogen – your joint pain should improve hopefully and you should gradually feel much better. Great advice from rebel2 - you might want to wait a bit before you start running - but who knows in the future?!  She has found that exercise and not medication is one of the best treatments for her anxiety and depression.

There are also some other ideas here to help cope with your anxiety? There is an excellent website called Nomorepanic which has some self-help measures. http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/articles/firststeps In addition elsewhere on this site members have recommended books about coping with anxiety here:  https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,36893.0.html. Also there is a thread about an exercise – 3-2-1 anxiety exercise started by a former member – which might help. Try to find something positive to do each day if you can! https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8454.0.html

Finally here is an article about some two minute daily habits to help you feel more positive: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/healthy-living/these-two-minute-daily-habits-will-make-you-happier-immediately-researchers-say-10364823.html

If there is anything else we can help with then do please ask

Go for it - and do post regularly for encouragement if you need to - we will all be willing you on to succeed

Hope this helps and all the best 

Hurdity x

[babyjane]

My apologies Hurdity if you feel I misquoted you, I realise that your knowledge about HRT is a lot greater than mine.  However I do feel that at times you do not see that, whilst HRT is the preferred and advised first line of treatment, you can be a little dismissive of other things being used alongside.  I seem to remember Beverley Callard and Carol Vorderman sharing that they need to take ADs alongside HRT for complete relief of their menopause symptoms.

My own experience has been that, whilst my own D and A have been there for decades, they did become worse at menopause.  Despite some efforts with HRT it did not suit me and I chose not to go down that route.  This was neither a right nor a wrong decision but was my decision.  I have found a low dose AD has suited my needs and am happy with my choice.  this is not a right or wrong decision either but my decision.

Whilst I applaud your desire to offer ladies the best advice you can, I do ask that you try to be a little more open minded to the possibility that some ladies may require both, if only for a time.  I do not expect you to advise this as it against what you believe, but maybe be a little more gentle on those that do who also speak from experience 

[Annie0710]

Personally I think if you haven't walked in someone's shoes you're not the right unqualified person to push for a particular route of treatment

I'm a naturally glass half full personality but menopause changed that for me.  I felt very low and suffered social anxiety because of an imbalance of hormones.  Because I don't require progesterone because I've had a hysterectomy that should've left me (according to what I read on the forum) able to feel good on oestrogen alone, as it's the 'feel good' hormone.  It took my physical symptoms away but didn't touch my emotional ones.  I've wasted 5 years of my life suffering because of lack of professional menopause knowledge and me refusing ADs, moreso since joining here because it's thrown around that increasing your oestrogen will make you feel better.  I think I've found my missing hormone, at least for now, but testosterone isn't widely available to a lot of women, so whatever the missing hormone is, and whether you are able to be prescribed it, you should take whatever you need to reach your happy, symptom-free or as close to, treatment.

At the end of the day, we shut down our phones/tablets/pcs and the original poster who is suffereing greatly, still suffers.  I'm sure I'm not alone but usually when I offer advice I also am thinking of that person once she's logged off for the evening, and give my thoughts based on that.

If I could turn back those 5 years, I would've carried on with my oestrogen, I would've fessed up to dr about my emotional symptoms and tried something low dose whilst still searching for the hormone balance then I could've tapered off the ADs.   But that's just my story. 

Now I'm feeling a lot better (not 100% but much better) it'd be easy for me to be blasé with advice

Of course, try different brands/methods of hrt but if it alone just doesn't cut it for you, try alternatives  alongside it xx