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[Chi chi]

I went to see a new Dr (private) he's also a holistic practitioner about my issues, as some of you may know I've been on and off HRT for a couple of years but don't get on with progesterone at all so decided to stop in January this year.
I've been trying to get to the bottom of my low moods, anxiety, tiredness, aches and pains, feeling cold all the time etc. Had tests for thyroid and b12 both normal (ish) a couple of thyroid results were bottom of range.
Ive always said I feel something never went back to normal after my first daughter 23 yrs ago, I also suffered PND.
So....this Dr explained that during pregnancy were flooded with hormones which causes receptors to be formed, lots of them. When the baby is born the hormones drop but the receptors stay and keep looking for the same level of hormones as before.
I'm prob not explaining this very well as I'm still trying to work it all out ( as usual) but I hope you all get the jist?
He basically said that my body is craving the extra hormones, apparently this doesn't happen to everyone just like ptsd doesn't happen to all soldiers, and the more hormones we get the more we need/crave
I hope to get an email in the next few days summarising my appt, I prob should have waited so I could explain things better but he thinks I have estrogen dominance and because I can't do progesterone he's prescribed pregnenolone and a few other things to help with the low thyroid etc

[Katia]

This makes sense to me. I've just changed from the pill to HRT and had a really hard time with symptoms with the drop in hormones so what you say about the more hormones we get the more we need makes total sense.  I suffer from feeling excessively cold all the time. I hope the pregnelelone helps,you feel better.

[Chi chi]

Thanks Katia and you too 

[MicheleMaBelle]

Hmmm- not sure about this chichi. The oestrogen receptors are there anyway. Never heard about his theory but I'm willing to learn more.
Not sure about the connection with pregnancy and PND although I believe that there's a link between PMT and PND and if you've suffered from these, your menopause may be more difficult due to depression. Is it not more to do with how the neurotransmitters in your brain deal with the hormonal changes?
I would be interested to know if he has any scientific evidence to back up his claims?

There's so much we don't know but I believe in the placebo effect and I do wonder sometimes if there are people out there who have no scientific evidence to back up their claims. Sorry but I'd be sceptical unless he could prove otherwise. X

[Chi chi]

Hmmm- not sure about this chichi. The oestrogen receptors are there anyway. Never heard about his theory but I'm willing to learn more.
Not sure about the connection with pregnancy and PND although I believe that there's a link between PMT and PND and if you've suffered from these, your menopause may be more difficult due to depression. Is it not more to do with how the neurotransmitters in your brain deal with the hormonal changes?
I would be interested to know if he has any scientific evidence to back up his claims?

There's so much we don't know but I believe in the placebo effect and I do wonder sometimes if there are people out there who have no scientific evidence to back up their claims. Sorry but I'd be sceptical unless he could prove otherwise. X

Totally get where you're coming from, I'm not the best at explaining things lol but hubby came with me to the appt and he was sceptical beforehand, afterwards though he agreed that what he said made a lot of sense and believe me my husband is no push over lol
Am I allowed to post a link to the Dr's website?

[Tempest]

Weird you should say this, Chi Chi......I was reading research the other day about PND, PMT  and PMDD. There IS research out there that states that women can suffer PMDD for the first time following a period of PND that continues with every cycle there on, and culminates in severe mood disturbances during perimenopause! You're DEFINITELY onto something here!

I met a lovely girl called Jo in The Priory (we are staying in touch) who had severe PND to the point of psychosis, and she has been warned by her psychiatrist that menopause will most probably be very difficult for her. She dare not fall pregnant again and is heartbroken - she wanted a brother or sister desperately for her little boy. She is now taking antidepressants cyclically to help control her symptoms of PMDD which she never had before the pregnancy.

It was because of meeting her that I have been doing a bit of research into this! xxxxx

[CLKD]

No to the Link.

If a woman has suffered severe psychosis after pregnancy it is likely to be the same following each delivery. 

chi chi - interesting take on hormones and sounds 'logical'.  Is there any Research/Papers/Conferences that you could look into on the subject?

Also do drop by at N.A.P.S. web-site to see the work that Dr Kathleen Dalton did in the 1970s/80s.  Their advice helped me a lot.

[Chi chi]

I hope this explains a bit better 

Thank you for coming to see me for an integrated approach to your probable 23 year effects of post-partum depression(PPD).
 
PPD is a highly complex issue as there are many theories behind why it happens. You have been treated, by Prof Studd, on the basis of either oestrogen or progesterone being of benefit, but this has had only short term and limited benefits, probably associated with oestrogens.
 
You have been tried on Escitalopram, a selective serotonin re-uptake inhibiter (SSRIs) and Lamotrigine with what you describe as a '5/10' benefit.
 
I explained to you my theory that oestrogen and progesterone receptors increase in number through pregnancy due to the high level of these hormones. In some women, when these hormones diminish after delivery, the receptors do not reduce in number and the individual starts to 'crave' the hormones. In a sense, this is a form of addiction and leads to depression, loss of motivation, anxiety and then onto physical symptoms.
 
There is a clear link between PPD and thyroid dysfunction.   http://www.postpartumprogress.com/thyroid-problems-in-women-postpartum-depression. A lot of your symptoms are similar to hypothyroidism but then they are also similar to oestrogen dominance  http://www.postpartumprogress.com/thyroid-problems-in-women-postpartum-depression.
 
I also explained how prolonged stress requires a lot of cortisol (the bodies stress coping hormone) and I showed you the attached steroidogenic pathway chart which explains how progesterone levels drop if cortisol has to be made in abundance.  When stressed the brain tries to make more calming hormones. These neurotransmitters are very dependent upon nutrition, particularly, amino acids, vitamins B complex, magnesium, zinc, iron and vitamin D.
 
I am highly suspicious that your long-term lack of fruit and vegetables (I do not think you are getting anywhere near your 9 or 10 portions a day) would have led to nutritional deficiency, which has not allowed your body to make its own 'happy hormones'. Artificial sugars trick the body into thinking it has energy and when it finds
 
 
no sugar there the body's biochemistry goes wrong. Adrenalin is produced to put sugar into the blood stream and this adds to the anxiety.
 
Recommended Treatment
 
There are no specific treatments that reduce oestrogen and progesterone receptors, or specific treatment that can sensitise the body cells to thyroxine. Detoxification might help as that may clear receptors.
 
We can, however, increase thyroid activity, so effectively increasing T4 and T3 levels, and we can encourage the body to make more of its calming hormones. By doing this we reduce the adrenaline affect which, in turn, reduces the demand for cortisol and so the stress response diminishes, the progesterone levels return, hopefully, to normal and the oestrogen dominance goes away.
 
To help this I suggest you take the following supplements:
 
Pregnenolone – a hormone made by the body which helps balance oestrogen and progesterone.
 
Thyro-complex

 
T-Convert

 
Pro Dial Vit 44 - a multi nutrient to replenish deficiencies

 
HPA- JA is an adaptogen. Adaptogens are nontoxic substances, generally from plants, that increase the body's ability to resist the damaging effects of stress and promote or restore normal physiological functioning. Please see the attached.
 
I would like to see how you get on over 1 month. If you are not improving then I will move to natural plant oestrogens or bioidentical hormones and increase the strength of the supplements and also consider a short trial on natural thyroxine. Lots of avenues for us to travel down.
 
Nutritionist
 
I think it extremely important that you sit with a nutritionist. We have to create a plan for you that you will stick to. Nutritionists will take the time to establish what it is that you like and don't like in food and help you design a plan that you will find easy to stick to over the years. Without good nutrition there is reduced chance of you rebalancing your neurotransmitters and hormones.

[Kathleen]

Hello Chi chi.

Thank you for a very interesting post.

 I wonder if  there is any more information/research on  the effects of diet on the menopause? I remember learning that Japanese women rarely complained about symptoms and that was thought  to be a cultural thing  but maybe they were eating a traditional diet and didn't feel too bad!

Hopefully you'll feel better soon and please keep us updated.

Wishing you well.

K.

[dazned]

Very interesting chi chi. Let's hope things will start to improve for you soon.

[CLKD]

Crikey!  Tnx.  Food 4 thought ;-).

Do a 'search' and see if any Papers etc. have been published.  What you have in front of you seems logical.  However, 1 would probably find it difficult to eat 9/10 portions fruit and veg.  I rarely get 3/4 even on a good day.  Maybe send him an e-mail to see how much he eats ;-) ?

There are foods that I love but which upset my gut and cause intense pain so I have to avoid those.  Maybe "Oh there's a mouse"  it's OK I'm in the garden  ....... maybe make a list and plan your menus for a week to include more?  I have finished my bag of fresh peas in the pods and the Supermarket were 'out' of stock!  .  Because our family has in the main kept a well stocked fruit cage and veg. garden all our grub was seasonal which is where tinned fruits/veg. help as well as veg. soups.  However, some makes still contain a lot of salts/sugars 

I'm sure that someone will be along about plant oestrogen ........

[DaisyB]

Chi chi - I'm really interested in this. Please keep updating. I did have PND for 4/5 months following an termination because of severe complications 18mths after my last daughter was born.
My diet is good - but not that good I'd be lucky to get 3-5 a day.
I have tried green smoothies etc but that has resulted in IBS bad flare ups and even reoccurring shingles because I raised arginine too much!!!
Looking back I do believe hormones have always been a problem - as has anxiety over health ( althoughbto a lesser degree) it seems to me that everything I had problems with when I was younger has been magnified beyond belief.
Diet and physical activity have a huge role to play, I believe. But when your energy and motivation is on the floor that's easier said than done. I wish you well and look forward to your updates


DaisyB xx

[Kathleen]

Hello again ladies.

DaisyB - Your comments resonated with me. I always believed I didn't have many hormonal problems when I was younger but now I wonder if that was true. I certainly used to get digestive issues when my period started but now I think the irritability and anxiety were also part of the package! My diet is pretty good and I was considering increasing my exercise, trouble is I'm so tired with all this flushing I'm worried I'd wear myself out!

Take care.

K.

[DaisyB]

Yea girls - looking back I remember bad pms around period times but life was so busy I guess I didn't think it was out of the ordinary. I also had heliobacter - but that took about 3 yrs to diagnose in my early 30's. So damage had been done in my opinion. I do remember going to a workshop in Belfast held by Dr Dalton and she explained that hormones required to trigger period were redirected away from stomach and therefore impacted on digestion. Wouldn't it be lovely to have a one size fits all perfect recipe?
I'm watching this post with interest - 

[Chi chi]

Well apparently the recommended fruit n veg per day has gone up to 10!! I doubt I'll be able to get that lot in  I was going to just do the smoothies but worry about upset tummy after reading your replies.

All my pills have just arrived, I'm going to be rattling as there's quite a lot to take! Has anyone tried any of them? I'm a bit nervous as I always am about starting new meds even "natural" ones.

Will keep you all updated