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Author Topic: Second attempt at vagifem -help  (Read 14851 times)

Dancinggirl

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Re: Second attempt at vagifem -help
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2018, 04:45:05 PM »

I don't agree with the pharmacist about bicarbonate of soda being too strong. The treatment sachets you buy usually have bicarbonate of soda in them anyway and are expensive. I would only ever use half a teaspoon of bicarb in a glass of water anyway and I've found drinking this can clear early UTI symptoms quite easily within  a couple of days. In the old days before antibiotics bicarbonate was the only treatment.
Once Vagifem treatment settles things then it should be on repeat prescription. In the NICE guidelines is clearly states that if a patient stops using local oestrogen then symptoms are likely to return - so basically we need to be on this for the rest of our lives.
UTIs are a very common problem in elderly ladies and result in constant antibiotics being used, so using local oestrogen could well help to prevent this. DG x
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Katejo

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Re: Second attempt at vagifem -help
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2018, 06:13:19 PM »

I don't agree with the pharmacist about bicarbonate of soda being too strong. The treatment sachets you buy usually have bicarbonate of soda in them anyway and are expensive. I would only ever use half a teaspoon of bicarb in a glass of water anyway and I've found drinking this can clear early UTI symptoms quite easily within  a couple of days. In the old days before antibiotics bicarbonate was the only treatment.
Once Vagifem treatment settles things then it should be on repeat prescription. In the NICE guidelines is clearly states that if a patient stops using local oestrogen then symptoms are likely to return - so basically we need to be on this for the rest of our lives.
UTIs are a very common problem in elderly ladies and result in constant antibiotics being used, so using local oestrogen could well help to prevent this. DG x
Yes I know about the need for continuous Vagifem but i just wanted to ask the view of the pharmacist to support my case when i next speak to a GP and try to get Vagifem as a repeat. I told the pharmacist that it was just half a teaspoon of bicarb but she was still convinced that it was too much.
I also asked about the way that I appeared to benefit from the vagifem straight away after one use whereas the leaflet inside said that patients need to use if for 8-12 weeks before noticing a difference. She replied that an immediate improvement is normal but that it varies from 1 woman to another.  I had wondered whether it was just a placebo effect.
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Katejo

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Re: Second attempt at vagifem -help
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2018, 08:05:35 PM »

I was told by a pharmacist that the over the counter cystitis treatments are a waste of time.  Hard to know what to believe in the end!
  That is what I always thought myself. I said to the  pharmacist that I thought they did no more than temporarily relieve symptoms but she disagreed.  It does just say symptomatic relief on the box.
I have had occasional  dubious claims from pharmacists in the past.
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Dancinggirl

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Re: Second attempt at vagifem -help
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2018, 09:31:40 AM »

I think at the beginning of the UTI infection( when you first feel any burning or urgency) or atrophy related burning, you can actually clear the infection and discomfort by drinking lots of water, and the bicarb of soda relieves the burning with the awful feeling you need to pee all time.  So the sachets bought at the chemist, if used early on, could essentially clear things because it basically encourages you to drink lots as well. BUT you don't need to buy the sachets as you can just use the half a teaspoon of bicarb in a glass of water 3 times a day for 2-3 days but you must also drink enough water throughout the day as well.
Too many women stop drinking when they get a UTI because they think it will make the need to pee worse - whereas drinking more will actually help.  It needs to be water as most other drinks like fruit juices, tea or coffee are bladder irritants. When you have an infection or there is atrophy, the urethra and lower bladder becomes inflamed and I believe this is what causes the need to pee a lot, as it's the body trying to clear out the concentrated and acidic urine that is irritating this sore area.
I am not a medical professional but I did see an excellent Youtube film done by an American Uro/gynae explaining about this problem and how he treated it.  Here in the UK, the urologist I saw told me he believed it is scare tissue from past infections and menopausal atrophy that causes these UTI type symptoms but I know there is now some research that shows some women have deep seated infections that need long term antibiotics. The Urologist I saw still called it interstitial cystitis which is a term used when they really don't know what is wrong!!!
I think it is accepted (recommended in the NICE guidelines) that by using local oestrogen this will plump up the skin of the vagina, bladder and urethra making it healthier and less likely to become inflamed.

Here is the section from the NICE guidelines about urogential atrophy:
Urogenital atrophy
1.4.9
Offer vaginal oestrogen to women with urogenital atrophy (including those on systemic HRT) and continue treatment for as long as needed to relieve symptoms.
1.4.10
Consider vaginal oestrogen for women with urogenital atrophy in whom systemic HRT is contraindicated, after seeking advice from a healthcare professional with expertise in menopause.
1.4.11
If vaginal oestrogen does not relieve symptoms of urogenital atrophy, consider increasing the dose after seeking advice from a healthcare professional with expertise in menopause.
1.4.12
Explain to women with urogenital atrophy that:
symptoms often come back when treatment is stopped
adverse effects from vaginal oestrogen are very rare
they should report unscheduled vaginal bleeding to their GP.
1.4.13
Advise women with vaginal dryness that moisturisers and lubricants can be used alone or in addition to vaginal oestrogen.
1.4.14
Do not offer routine monitoring of endometrial thickness during treatment for urogenital atrophy.


DG x
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CLKD

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Re: Second attempt at vagifem -help
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2018, 09:37:44 AM »

Lovely to find a Pharmacist willing to chat.  However: maternal Grandma SWORE by bicarb of soda for many things, as well as in cooking.  She would make it into a paste if we sustained a burn or graze; she did recommend half a teaspoonful in boiled, cooled water for various internal complaints.  I don't think that bicarb can be 'too strong'.  The body will cleanse it away.

It is known that some ladies find the packaging or fillers in many products aggravate already nasty symptoms so it may be that Vagifem doesn't suit everyone, it may not be the active ingredient that is the problem.  Also it stands to reason that putting something alien up there may aggravate the overall vaginal area until it becomes used to what it feels is 'foreign'. 

It's the Trial and Error that is so tiring  :-\
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Katejo

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Re: Second attempt at vagifem -help
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2018, 10:49:13 AM »

I think at the beginning of the UTI infection( when you first feel any burning or urgency) or atrophy related burning, you can actually clear the infection and discomfort by drinking lots of water, and the bicarb of soda relieves the burning with the awful feeling you need to pee all time.  So the sachets bought at the chemist, if used early on, could essentially clear things because it basically encourages you to drink lots as well. BUT you don't need to buy the sachets as you can just use the half a teaspoon of bicarb in a glass of water 3 times a day for 2-3 days but you must also drink enough water throughout the day as well.
Too many women stop drinking when they get a UTI because they think it will make the need to pee worse - whereas drinking more will actually help.  It needs to be water as most other drinks like fruit juices, tea or coffee are bladder irritants. When you have an infection or there is atrophy, the urethra and lower bladder becomes inflamed and I believe this is what causes the need to pee a lot, as it's the body trying to clear out the concentrated and acidic urine that is irritating this sore area.
I am not a medical professional but I did see an excellent Youtube film done by an American Uro/gynae explaining about this problem and how he treated it.  Here in the UK, the urologist I saw told me he believed it is scare tissue from past infections and menopausal atrophy that causes these UTI type symptoms but I know there is now some research that shows some women have deep seated infections that need long term antibiotics. The Urologist I saw still called it interstitial cystitis which is a term used when they really don't know what is wrong!!!
I think it is accepted (recommended in the NICE guidelines) that by using local oestrogen this will plump up the skin of the vagina, bladder and urethra making it healthier and less likely to become inflamed.

Here is the section from the NICE guidelines about urogential atrophy:
Urogenital atrophy
1.4.9
Offer vaginal oestrogen to women with urogenital atrophy (including those on systemic HRT) and continue treatment for as long as needed to relieve symptoms.
1.4.10
Consider vaginal oestrogen for women with urogenital atrophy in whom systemic HRT is contraindicated, after seeking advice from a healthcare professional with expertise in menopause.
1.4.11
If vaginal oestrogen does not relieve symptoms of urogenital atrophy, consider increasing the dose after seeking advice from a healthcare professional with expertise in menopause.
1.4.12
Explain to women with urogenital atrophy that:
symptoms often come back when treatment is stopped
adverse effects from vaginal oestrogen are very rare
they should report unscheduled vaginal bleeding to their GP.
1.4.13
Advise women with vaginal dryness that moisturisers and lubricants can be used alone or in addition to vaginal oestrogen.
1.4.14
Do not offer routine monitoring of endometrial thickness during treatment for urogenital atrophy.


DG x
Recently I read that doctors had decided that drinking loads of water didn't help that much and it was possible to drink too much. Sorry but I don't remember the source.
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Dancinggirl

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Re: Second attempt at vagifem -help
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2018, 11:59:19 AM »

You mustn't drink too much, that's true, but drinking ‘enough' is essential. After I had the cystoscopy I was told to drink 2 litres of water to flush things through to help prevent infection taking hold. If you don't drink enough then your urine becomes strong and irritates - I definitely notice this. When I get a flare up of burning and urinary urgency, I will fill a 300ml bottle with water and put half a teaspoon of bicarb in and then drink this through the morning and do the same in the afternoon. I will also have other drinks alongside this. You do get fluids from food as well but I believe we need around 1.5 lites per day but more if sweating a lot. I sweat a great deal because I still get flushes and I'm very active so I have to keep hydrated.
Drinking cranberry juice has now been discredited as it is so full of sugar and controlled trials showed it didn't help the infection or symptoms. DG x
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Katejo

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Re: Second attempt at vagifem -help
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2018, 12:27:11 PM »

You mustn't drink too much, that's true, but drinking ‘enough' is essential. After I had the cystoscopy I was told to drink 2 litres of water to flush things through to help prevent infection taking hold. If you don't drink enough then your urine becomes strong and irritates - I definitely notice this. When I get a flare up of burning and urinary urgency, I will fill a 300ml bottle with water and put half a teaspoon of bicarb in and then drink this through the morning and do the same in the afternoon. I will also have other drinks alongside this. You do get fluids from food as well but I believe we need around 1.5 lites per day but more if sweating a lot. I sweat a great deal because I still get flushes and I'm very active so I have to keep hydrated.
Drinking cranberry juice has now been discredited as it is so full of sugar and controlled trials showed it didn't help the infection or symptoms. DG x
i find it really hard to drink that much water. i just keep an eye on the colour of the urine and drink more if it isn't really pale. I know that the cranberry juice theory has been discredited.
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Dancinggirl

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Re: Second attempt at vagifem -help
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2018, 12:28:17 PM »

If your urine is pale yellow then it's fine. DG x
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Katejo

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Re: Second attempt at vagifem -help
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2018, 01:35:57 PM »

If your urine is pale yellow then it's fine. DG x
I am really frustrated today. I am still waiting for the GP to ring me about my urine test result. It was supposed to be around 11.30 but no call came. I rang the surgery at 1.30 and was told that the calls were being made to patients. It is such a waste of my time. I am sitting here doing nothing. if I dare to start doing anything much, I will miss the call. Loads of little jobs to do but I can't risk it. I know the doctors are very busy but this method of calling us back drives me nuts!
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Blot

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Re: Second attempt at vagifem -help
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2018, 06:16:24 PM »

Trying to be patient and ride this thing out. Had 2 pretty ok days then today I'm stinging again and I don't know why. My bladder seems fine at the moment. Don't feel the urge to wee all the time but I'm just sore it seems on the outside.

It's weird but this morning when I got up I felt like I was stuck together.  I've been using the vagifem on a morning so it would have been about 3 hours since I used it and felt a bit gluey down below so used a little bit of sylk and not sure if that set it off. Then after that I've just been sore all day. Had a warm bath with just bicarbonate of soda in it and that did help a bit.

I've heard that people have good days and bad days and it's very early days for me using the vagifem, only day 5 of my second attempt so I'm just going to keep on with it and see how I go. My “new” gp said it can take 3 months to feel any improvement.

Hope it's not just me. Not a clue what's going on.
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Katejo

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Re: Second attempt at vagifem -help
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2018, 07:08:30 PM »

Trying to be patient and ride this thing out. Had 2 pretty ok days then today I'm stinging again and I don't know why. My bladder seems fine at the moment. Don't feel the urge to wee all the time but I'm just sore it seems on the outside.

It's weird but this morning when I got up I felt like I was stuck together.  I've been using the vagifem on a morning so it would have been about 3 hours since I used it and felt a bit gluey down below so used a little bit of sylk and not sure if that set it off. Then after that I've just been sore all day. Had a warm bath with just bicarbonate of soda in it and that did help a bit.

I've heard that people have good days and bad days and it's very early days for me using the vagifem, only day 5 of my second attempt so I'm just going to keep on with it and see how I go. My “new” gp said it can take 3 months to feel any improvement.

Hope it's not just me. Not a clue what's going on.
Hi Blot   Eventually the GP gave me the go ahead to try using it daily rather than twice a week so I will be starting that tomorrow. Let me know how you get on. You might like to read about the following book. It has been recommended on the FB page this evening. It is very new (published Sept 2018).

https://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0349421773/menopausema0e-21
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 05:16:31 PM by Emma »
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Blot

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Re: Second attempt at vagifem -help
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2018, 04:17:52 AM »

Thanks Katejo. I'll have a look.
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Katejo

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Re: Second attempt at vagifem -help
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2018, 02:28:28 PM »

Thanks Katejo. I'll have a look.
  I downloaded the Kindle free sample this morning and read it in a cafe. Found it really interesting and quite promising. Wandered into Waterstone's where I didn't really expect to find a copy because my local branch is small but it was there so I bought a copy. Certainly worth a look based on the two chapters read so far.
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Blot

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Re: Second attempt at vagifem -help
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2018, 03:00:28 PM »

I guess it's saying that we should all be on hrt? It's funny because my gp was saying that 45 is classed as early menopause and I started at 46. So if my periods had stopped at 45 would I have been advised to go on hrt for all the benefits it can bring? And how would they have known if I didn't go in with any symptoms and complaints? I'm sure it's the same for many women.
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