Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Personal Experiences => Topic started by: Blot on October 22, 2018, 02:38:30 PM
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On the advice of the doctor at the GUM clinic I have restarted the vagifem this morning so would just like some encouragement to carry on with it. I feel like I need to wee all the time already! Surely not just after one use?
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How long did you use it before you gave up last time?
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7 days. Then my gp told me to stop when I asked her about it.
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On the advice of the doctor at the GUM clinic I have restarted the vagifem this morning so would just like some encouragement to carry on with it. I feel like I need to wee all the time already! Surely not just after one use?
I have just recognised your comments on FB Blot. Today I have had the feeling of needing to pee a lot as well. I did insert a Vagifem this morning. I don't know why this has come back except that I am due to go on holiday on Thursday and I always get this just before I go! I did leave a sample at the GP today but won't get the result before I go. I don't want to take another AB as the last ones didn't work well at all.
Sometimes the Vagifem seems to work well and other times it doesn't but I don't know why.
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Yes I'm all over the place Katejo.
Just hope I can give this a proper go without wimping out.
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Sometimes symptoms increase with the boost of hormone, the day after I use Ovestin I feel the need to pee more often. Then those feelings settle.
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Yes I'm all over the place Katejo.
Just hope I can give this a proper go without wimping out.
Let's carry on supporting /encouraging each other! I may try looking for a GUM clinic when I get back from my trip to Italy.
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Hi
I have been taking vagifem now constantly for 3 months . When I first started them I was told to use for 2 weeks and then twice a week . As soon as I cut back the symptoms came back so the GP said I could take them constantly . I am now so much better but do get the odd symptom now and then . The GP said that she will need to give me progesterone if I continue to use them full time.
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Yes we need to support each other Katejo.
Why would you need progesterone Grace? I thought the hormones in vagifem was really small?
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Grace - hang onto the GP ! we'll all be queuing up at her door ;)
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You do not need to use progesterone even if you use Vagifem every day, the amount of estrogen when used every day is equivalent to two Systemic HRT tablets a year.
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Hi RE progesterone with vagifem. I also wondered why I would need progesterone with vagifem so I paid for an email with this society . The response was that there are no long term studies for continual use and that the GP was right in her concerns. The email said that maybe to have a scan every year to check womb thickness . ( not sure my surgery would agree with that ) I also asked my Gyno and he seemed very vague as well . I would prefer not to use anything other than the vagifem and just take a chance as the dose is so low. That's really interesting that it's only the same as 2 HRT tablets. I need to investigate further .
Many thanks for response.
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Grace...it was meno specialist who told me about there being no risk long term with Vagifem and she wrote to my GP and told him that it was equivalent to the two HRT tablets.
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Grace...who did you email?
I have a Mirena because I also use systemic HRT, but I wouldn't be concerned if I wasn't as it's such a small amount of estrogen in the Vagifem.
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Blot - as others have said, I think you are getting the constant need to pee because you are so anxious - I really don't think it's the Vagifem causing this.
When we are anxious we tend to clench - this is probably contracting everything in your lower abdominal area.
You also probably need to train your bladder to hold more now, because it has probably contracted. Try drinking just water for a few days, making sure you drink the 6-8 glasses through the day. Even if you do feel as if you need to pee, try to hold on so you only pee every 2-3 hours. I often find I feel I need to pee but if I get on with a job around the house I can forget I need to go.
Try lying on the floor and totally relaxing the whole abdominal area.
You have got to try to get your brain to accept that the Vagifem is doing good and will help in the long term.
DG x
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Blot - as others have said, I think you are getting the constant need to pee because you are so anxious - I really don't think it's the Vagifem causing this.
When we are anxious we tend to clench - this is probably contracting everything in your lower abdominal area.
You also probably need to train your bladder to hold more now, because it has probably contracted. Try drinking just water for a few days, making sure you drink the 6-8 glasses through the day. Even if you do feel as if you need to pee, try to hold on so you only pee every 2-3 hours. I often find I feel I need to pee but if I get on with a job around the house I can forget I need to go.
Try lying on the floor and totally relaxing the whole abdominal area.
You have got to try to get your brain to accept that the Vagifem is doing good and will help in the long term.
DG x
Some of this may be true for me too. I am not anxious all the time but I am badly affected just when I am supposed to be going away!
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Blot, I am on day 7 of Vagifem taking it at night and using ovestin for sore bits. It was uncomfortable to start with and I had some burning, but it seems to be improving. I also followed advice from Dancing girl and cut out caffeine, alcohol, acidic fruits, sugar and am drinking lots of water. It's very hard but I am hoping to try reintroducing some things one at a time to see if anything makes it worse. Drinking lots of water during the day does make me Pee more, but at night I'm only up once or maybe twice. Still experiencing other random symptoms making the anxiety bad. Not much appetite and crying in secret, but hoping that once one symptom gets better, the others will follow.
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Thanks DG and everyone. Its not the urge to wee all the time, its the soreness and feeling so uncomfortable in the vag. But of course when I do need to wee i feel worse. So its both I guess. It doesn't really sting to wee though. I am drinking plenty of water.
I do appreciate all of you giving me advice and trying to help. I'm on my lunch break and just about filling up you are so lovely. And Daska crying in secret, that's so sad and like me.
Day 2 now. I don't seem so bad at work but when I get home I seem to get worse. I'll carry on and see what GP number 2 says tomorrow x
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Oh Sparkle how did you stop googling. It's the devil's work if you have health anxiety.
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Trouble is I can't concentrate or think about anything else at the moment so can't distract myself. Sometimes wish the internet had never been invented. Ignorance is bliss.
It's the constant quest for reassurance that keeps you googling.
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Blot - do you have a burning sensation that is very sore? Do try some frozen peas in a plastic bag then wrapped in a tea towel and hold this next to your ‘lady bits'. Also try putting some cold water on some toilet paper and hold this over your vagina after you pee.
Put your feet up so it relieves the pressure on the urethra - don't sit for too long.
It's still better to use the Vagifem at night I think and perhaps take a Nytol (the antihistamine one) as this will help you sleep and is known to reduce the need to pee. Have you tried half a teaspoon of bicarb of soda in a glass of water 3 times a day? You can add a little cordial to this to make it palatable.
You just need to calm everything by removing all irritants, do relaxation lying down and keep active if possible( so get out fro walks). DG x
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Or an over-the-counter pain relief and maybe a double dose of vagifem occasionally as it's 10 rather than a 25 delivered dose.
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Or an over-the-counter pain relief and maybe a double dose of vagifem occasionally as it's 10 rather than a 25 delivered dose.
But surely not if the irritation/burning is a side effect of the Vagifem. I am really confused at the moment. I have taken a dose today and yesterday but will give it a break tomorrow to see if it helps. I am feeling lousy today. i had slight nausea this morning and I now see that that is another listed side effect. Slept badly last night and am aching all over at the moment.
Blot and I seem to be having a similar problem with Vagifem.
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Regardless - a pain relief medication should help. Let us know how you get on.
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Regardless - a pain relief medication should help. Let us know how you get on.
Why do you say 'regardless' here if the burning is a side effect of the Vagifem? I am about to eat something small so I can take Nurofen. I tried bicarb of soda in water earlier but it hasn't helped.
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Actually CKLD I was told to avoid aspirin or Ibuprofen with this kind of pain as they can aggregate the bladder and Paracetamol doesn't do anything anyway. A cold compress between the legs can ease the pain. Please ignore the leaflet that comes with the Vagifem as it is the same information thatvcomes with full systemic HRT so isn't really relevant.
Please remember that Vagifem isnt absorbed systemically so couldn't have any effect on the digestive system but high anxiety will make you feel nauseous. It is such a low dose it really can't have that much effect on the body systemically. What can cause some irritation locally are the fillers in the pessaries but if vaginal moisturiser is used a few hours after inserting the Vagifem this can reduce any irritation.
These bladder problems are very distressing and I've suffered awful pain and burning at times but it can and does get better in time.
Do try using Nytol or Sleepeze to help you get some sleep and calm things down generally.
The bicarbonate in water takes around 24-48 hours to help and you need to drink this at least 3 times a day for 2-3 days for it to calm things. - there is no quick fix. DG x
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Actually CKLD I was told to avoid aspirin or Ibuprofen with this kind of pain as they can aggregate the bladder and Paracetamol doesn't do anything anyway. A cold compress between the legs can ease the pain. Please ignore the leaflet that comes with the Vagifem as it is the same information thatvcomes with full systemic HRT so isn't really relevant.
Please remember that Vagifem isnt absorbed systemically so couldn't have any effect on the digestive system but high anxiety will make you feel nauseous. It is such a low dose it really can't have that much effect on the body systemically. What can cause some irritation locally are the fillers in the pessaries but if vaginal moisturiser is used a few hours after inserting the Vagifem this can reduce any irritation.
These bladder problems are very distressing and I've suffered awful pain and burning at times but it can and does get better in time.
Do try using Nytol or Sleepeze to help you get some sleep and calm things down generally.
The bicarbonate in water takes around 24-48 hours to help and you need to drink this at least 3 times a day for 2-3 days for it to calm things. - there is no quick fix. DG x
Thanks. The person who recommended the sodium bicarb said that it had helped her within an hour or so. i will get myself some Nytol which i have never tried before. Tonight i will take an anti histamine and Nurofen too because it has reduced the symptoms before now. I can't decide whether it is worth trying to see a GP tomorrow. They probably won't have got my urine test result back.
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Nytol :sick02:
Don't take an anti-histamine and pain relief together ;-)
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Cold and cough medicines often have both an antihistamine and painkiller together.
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Trouble is I can't concentrate or think about anything else at the moment so can't distract myself. Sometimes wish the internet had never been invented. Ignorance is bliss.
It's the constant quest for reassurance that keeps you googling.
Hi Blot I had a very useful chat to a senior pharmacist at Boots today. i had gone to collect an unrelated repeat prescription but she wanted to have a chat with me so I took the opportunity to ask a few questions. The following might help you:
1. If you get cystitis like symptoms while using the Vagifem, try taking one of the cystitis treatments which you can buy in Boots. She said that this would help to check whether the problem was being caused by the Vagifem or not. The treatment would clear it if it is cystitis but not if it is a side effect of Vagifem. She doesn't recommend using bicarb of soda as I did this week. Too strong.
2. I did try bicarb earlier this week and it has cleared the symptoms almost completely. I used another Vagifem this morning after leaving it for a couple of days and the irritation hasn't returned. If it does, I will try the sachet.
I also told her about the surgery's reluctance to prescribe Vagifem and other HRT related products on a repeat/continuous basis. She agreed that only taking them for a short period was insufficient. If I have difficulty in getting further prescriptions, I might ask her to contact the surgery on my behalf. She seemed willing to do this.
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I don't agree with the pharmacist about bicarbonate of soda being too strong. The treatment sachets you buy usually have bicarbonate of soda in them anyway and are expensive. I would only ever use half a teaspoon of bicarb in a glass of water anyway and I've found drinking this can clear early UTI symptoms quite easily within a couple of days. In the old days before antibiotics bicarbonate was the only treatment.
Once Vagifem treatment settles things then it should be on repeat prescription. In the NICE guidelines is clearly states that if a patient stops using local oestrogen then symptoms are likely to return - so basically we need to be on this for the rest of our lives.
UTIs are a very common problem in elderly ladies and result in constant antibiotics being used, so using local oestrogen could well help to prevent this. DG x
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I don't agree with the pharmacist about bicarbonate of soda being too strong. The treatment sachets you buy usually have bicarbonate of soda in them anyway and are expensive. I would only ever use half a teaspoon of bicarb in a glass of water anyway and I've found drinking this can clear early UTI symptoms quite easily within a couple of days. In the old days before antibiotics bicarbonate was the only treatment.
Once Vagifem treatment settles things then it should be on repeat prescription. In the NICE guidelines is clearly states that if a patient stops using local oestrogen then symptoms are likely to return - so basically we need to be on this for the rest of our lives.
UTIs are a very common problem in elderly ladies and result in constant antibiotics being used, so using local oestrogen could well help to prevent this. DG x
Yes I know about the need for continuous Vagifem but i just wanted to ask the view of the pharmacist to support my case when i next speak to a GP and try to get Vagifem as a repeat. I told the pharmacist that it was just half a teaspoon of bicarb but she was still convinced that it was too much.
I also asked about the way that I appeared to benefit from the vagifem straight away after one use whereas the leaflet inside said that patients need to use if for 8-12 weeks before noticing a difference. She replied that an immediate improvement is normal but that it varies from 1 woman to another. I had wondered whether it was just a placebo effect.
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I was told by a pharmacist that the over the counter cystitis treatments are a waste of time. Hard to know what to believe in the end!
That is what I always thought myself. I said to the pharmacist that I thought they did no more than temporarily relieve symptoms but she disagreed. It does just say symptomatic relief on the box.
I have had occasional dubious claims from pharmacists in the past.
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I think at the beginning of the UTI infection( when you first feel any burning or urgency) or atrophy related burning, you can actually clear the infection and discomfort by drinking lots of water, and the bicarb of soda relieves the burning with the awful feeling you need to pee all time. So the sachets bought at the chemist, if used early on, could essentially clear things because it basically encourages you to drink lots as well. BUT you don't need to buy the sachets as you can just use the half a teaspoon of bicarb in a glass of water 3 times a day for 2-3 days but you must also drink enough water throughout the day as well.
Too many women stop drinking when they get a UTI because they think it will make the need to pee worse - whereas drinking more will actually help. It needs to be water as most other drinks like fruit juices, tea or coffee are bladder irritants. When you have an infection or there is atrophy, the urethra and lower bladder becomes inflamed and I believe this is what causes the need to pee a lot, as it's the body trying to clear out the concentrated and acidic urine that is irritating this sore area.
I am not a medical professional but I did see an excellent Youtube film done by an American Uro/gynae explaining about this problem and how he treated it. Here in the UK, the urologist I saw told me he believed it is scare tissue from past infections and menopausal atrophy that causes these UTI type symptoms but I know there is now some research that shows some women have deep seated infections that need long term antibiotics. The Urologist I saw still called it interstitial cystitis which is a term used when they really don't know what is wrong!!!
I think it is accepted (recommended in the NICE guidelines) that by using local oestrogen this will plump up the skin of the vagina, bladder and urethra making it healthier and less likely to become inflamed.
Here is the section from the NICE guidelines about urogential atrophy:
Urogenital atrophy
1.4.9
Offer vaginal oestrogen to women with urogenital atrophy (including those on systemic HRT) and continue treatment for as long as needed to relieve symptoms.
1.4.10
Consider vaginal oestrogen for women with urogenital atrophy in whom systemic HRT is contraindicated, after seeking advice from a healthcare professional with expertise in menopause.
1.4.11
If vaginal oestrogen does not relieve symptoms of urogenital atrophy, consider increasing the dose after seeking advice from a healthcare professional with expertise in menopause.
1.4.12
Explain to women with urogenital atrophy that:
symptoms often come back when treatment is stopped
adverse effects from vaginal oestrogen are very rare
they should report unscheduled vaginal bleeding to their GP.
1.4.13
Advise women with vaginal dryness that moisturisers and lubricants can be used alone or in addition to vaginal oestrogen.
1.4.14
Do not offer routine monitoring of endometrial thickness during treatment for urogenital atrophy.
DG x
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Lovely to find a Pharmacist willing to chat. However: maternal Grandma SWORE by bicarb of soda for many things, as well as in cooking. She would make it into a paste if we sustained a burn or graze; she did recommend half a teaspoonful in boiled, cooled water for various internal complaints. I don't think that bicarb can be 'too strong'. The body will cleanse it away.
It is known that some ladies find the packaging or fillers in many products aggravate already nasty symptoms so it may be that Vagifem doesn't suit everyone, it may not be the active ingredient that is the problem. Also it stands to reason that putting something alien up there may aggravate the overall vaginal area until it becomes used to what it feels is 'foreign'.
It's the Trial and Error that is so tiring :-\
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I think at the beginning of the UTI infection( when you first feel any burning or urgency) or atrophy related burning, you can actually clear the infection and discomfort by drinking lots of water, and the bicarb of soda relieves the burning with the awful feeling you need to pee all time. So the sachets bought at the chemist, if used early on, could essentially clear things because it basically encourages you to drink lots as well. BUT you don't need to buy the sachets as you can just use the half a teaspoon of bicarb in a glass of water 3 times a day for 2-3 days but you must also drink enough water throughout the day as well.
Too many women stop drinking when they get a UTI because they think it will make the need to pee worse - whereas drinking more will actually help. It needs to be water as most other drinks like fruit juices, tea or coffee are bladder irritants. When you have an infection or there is atrophy, the urethra and lower bladder becomes inflamed and I believe this is what causes the need to pee a lot, as it's the body trying to clear out the concentrated and acidic urine that is irritating this sore area.
I am not a medical professional but I did see an excellent Youtube film done by an American Uro/gynae explaining about this problem and how he treated it. Here in the UK, the urologist I saw told me he believed it is scare tissue from past infections and menopausal atrophy that causes these UTI type symptoms but I know there is now some research that shows some women have deep seated infections that need long term antibiotics. The Urologist I saw still called it interstitial cystitis which is a term used when they really don't know what is wrong!!!
I think it is accepted (recommended in the NICE guidelines) that by using local oestrogen this will plump up the skin of the vagina, bladder and urethra making it healthier and less likely to become inflamed.
Here is the section from the NICE guidelines about urogential atrophy:
Urogenital atrophy
1.4.9
Offer vaginal oestrogen to women with urogenital atrophy (including those on systemic HRT) and continue treatment for as long as needed to relieve symptoms.
1.4.10
Consider vaginal oestrogen for women with urogenital atrophy in whom systemic HRT is contraindicated, after seeking advice from a healthcare professional with expertise in menopause.
1.4.11
If vaginal oestrogen does not relieve symptoms of urogenital atrophy, consider increasing the dose after seeking advice from a healthcare professional with expertise in menopause.
1.4.12
Explain to women with urogenital atrophy that:
symptoms often come back when treatment is stopped
adverse effects from vaginal oestrogen are very rare
they should report unscheduled vaginal bleeding to their GP.
1.4.13
Advise women with vaginal dryness that moisturisers and lubricants can be used alone or in addition to vaginal oestrogen.
1.4.14
Do not offer routine monitoring of endometrial thickness during treatment for urogenital atrophy.
DG x
Recently I read that doctors had decided that drinking loads of water didn't help that much and it was possible to drink too much. Sorry but I don't remember the source.
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You mustn't drink too much, that's true, but drinking ‘enough' is essential. After I had the cystoscopy I was told to drink 2 litres of water to flush things through to help prevent infection taking hold. If you don't drink enough then your urine becomes strong and irritates - I definitely notice this. When I get a flare up of burning and urinary urgency, I will fill a 300ml bottle with water and put half a teaspoon of bicarb in and then drink this through the morning and do the same in the afternoon. I will also have other drinks alongside this. You do get fluids from food as well but I believe we need around 1.5 lites per day but more if sweating a lot. I sweat a great deal because I still get flushes and I'm very active so I have to keep hydrated.
Drinking cranberry juice has now been discredited as it is so full of sugar and controlled trials showed it didn't help the infection or symptoms. DG x
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You mustn't drink too much, that's true, but drinking ‘enough' is essential. After I had the cystoscopy I was told to drink 2 litres of water to flush things through to help prevent infection taking hold. If you don't drink enough then your urine becomes strong and irritates - I definitely notice this. When I get a flare up of burning and urinary urgency, I will fill a 300ml bottle with water and put half a teaspoon of bicarb in and then drink this through the morning and do the same in the afternoon. I will also have other drinks alongside this. You do get fluids from food as well but I believe we need around 1.5 lites per day but more if sweating a lot. I sweat a great deal because I still get flushes and I'm very active so I have to keep hydrated.
Drinking cranberry juice has now been discredited as it is so full of sugar and controlled trials showed it didn't help the infection or symptoms. DG x
i find it really hard to drink that much water. i just keep an eye on the colour of the urine and drink more if it isn't really pale. I know that the cranberry juice theory has been discredited.
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If your urine is pale yellow then it's fine. DG x
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If your urine is pale yellow then it's fine. DG x
I am really frustrated today. I am still waiting for the GP to ring me about my urine test result. It was supposed to be around 11.30 but no call came. I rang the surgery at 1.30 and was told that the calls were being made to patients. It is such a waste of my time. I am sitting here doing nothing. if I dare to start doing anything much, I will miss the call. Loads of little jobs to do but I can't risk it. I know the doctors are very busy but this method of calling us back drives me nuts!
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Trying to be patient and ride this thing out. Had 2 pretty ok days then today I'm stinging again and I don't know why. My bladder seems fine at the moment. Don't feel the urge to wee all the time but I'm just sore it seems on the outside.
It's weird but this morning when I got up I felt like I was stuck together. I've been using the vagifem on a morning so it would have been about 3 hours since I used it and felt a bit gluey down below so used a little bit of sylk and not sure if that set it off. Then after that I've just been sore all day. Had a warm bath with just bicarbonate of soda in it and that did help a bit.
I've heard that people have good days and bad days and it's very early days for me using the vagifem, only day 5 of my second attempt so I'm just going to keep on with it and see how I go. My “new†gp said it can take 3 months to feel any improvement.
Hope it's not just me. Not a clue what's going on.
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Trying to be patient and ride this thing out. Had 2 pretty ok days then today I'm stinging again and I don't know why. My bladder seems fine at the moment. Don't feel the urge to wee all the time but I'm just sore it seems on the outside.
It's weird but this morning when I got up I felt like I was stuck together. I've been using the vagifem on a morning so it would have been about 3 hours since I used it and felt a bit gluey down below so used a little bit of sylk and not sure if that set it off. Then after that I've just been sore all day. Had a warm bath with just bicarbonate of soda in it and that did help a bit.
I've heard that people have good days and bad days and it's very early days for me using the vagifem, only day 5 of my second attempt so I'm just going to keep on with it and see how I go. My “new†gp said it can take 3 months to feel any improvement.
Hope it's not just me. Not a clue what's going on.
Hi Blot Eventually the GP gave me the go ahead to try using it daily rather than twice a week so I will be starting that tomorrow. Let me know how you get on. You might like to read about the following book. It has been recommended on the FB page this evening. It is very new (published Sept 2018).
https://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0349421773/menopausema0e-21
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Thanks Katejo. I'll have a look.
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Thanks Katejo. I'll have a look.
I downloaded the Kindle free sample this morning and read it in a cafe. Found it really interesting and quite promising. Wandered into Waterstone's where I didn't really expect to find a copy because my local branch is small but it was there so I bought a copy. Certainly worth a look based on the two chapters read so far.
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I guess it's saying that we should all be on hrt? It's funny because my gp was saying that 45 is classed as early menopause and I started at 46. So if my periods had stopped at 45 would I have been advised to go on hrt for all the benefits it can bring? And how would they have known if I didn't go in with any symptoms and complaints? I'm sure it's the same for many women.
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I guess it's saying that we should all be on hrt? It's funny because my gp was saying that 45 is classed as early menopause and I started at 46. So if my periods had stopped at 45 would I have been advised to go on hrt for all the benefits it can bring? And how would they have known if I didn't go in with any symptoms and complaints? I'm sure it's the same for many women.
Based on what I have read so far (only 2 chapters) , it may do that.
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Day 9 on the vagifem. Just when you think things are looking up then it gets worse again. The past two days have been ok. I've been taking it easy as I'm off work, so just being lazy, lying around, feet up, airing my bits etc. But during the night things have been worse again, the soreness is back.
I had a shower yesterday and washed my hair so don't know if that has set things off, but I did rinse my bits well just in case. Late afternoon and evening I felt things weren't quite as good so I also used a bit of sylk on the outside just before bed and don't know if that's made it worse. Also had a bit of spicy chicken for dinner but surely that can't have irritated things so quickly.
It's so disheartening. I'm scared of doing anything or leaving the house at the moment in case I set things off which is probably not a good idea. I think OH is getting a bit exasperated with me as I'm such a useless lump currently, although to be fair he hasn't said anything.
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I have ordered the Yes moisturiser Sparkle. Just waiting for it to arrive.
I am really just hoping this is the norm whilst starting up to have good days then not so good till things settle down and not a bad sign.
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I'm afraid shampoo is definitely a trigger. You can't let that strong stuff anywhere near your intimate area. I once had my worst bout of burning after I had stupidly washed my hair in the shower - rinsing well afterwards wouldn't have helped.
Did you have plenty of water with your spicy chicken?
I'm afraid it is still early days for you and the Vagifem hasn't had enough time to really work it's magic. Some find it is a couple of months till things truly settle.
I doubt the SYLK made things worse.
Do get out for walks - don't sit down for too long and stay chilled. It sounds as though things are starting to improve but flare ups will happen.
DG x
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Thanks DG. Definitely no hair washing in the shower again then. I haven't been sitting, mainly lying on the sofa to keep pressure off my bits. I did have water with the chicken but not loads.
It's hard to understand how atrophy can make the outside bits sore as well. How does using vagifem internally help the outside? All these varying symptoms have got me confused the way they move location.
Please bear with me folks. I'm probably annoying the life out of everyone with my relentless questions and reassurance seeking but I appreciate the support. Don't know how I'd cope otherwise.
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Thanks DG. Definitely no hair washing in the shower again then. I haven't been sitting, mainly lying on the sofa to keep pressure off my bits. I did have water with the chicken but not loads.
It's hard to understand how atrophy can make the outside bits sore as well. How does using vagifem internally help the outside? All these varying symptoms have got me confused the way they move location.
Please bear with me folks. I'm probably annoying the life out of everyone with my relentless questions and reassurance seeking but I appreciate the support. Don't know how I'd cope otherwise.
I haven't noticed any irritation from shampoo or shower gel. I am also not sure as to how well the Vagifem will work but I am going to continue for the time being to give it a chance. I can't help with the soreness I'm afraid.
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Atrophy affects the whole area - vuvlva, vagina, urethra and bladder. I find the external soreness comes when my flora balance is off. I do think that Vagifem can effect the flora balance a bit ( it's thecfillers that are the problem not the oestrogen) , especially with the initial 2 week daily load.
I'm afraid I find that Multi Gyn restores the balance really quickly so as soon as I feel itchy or sore i use a small dollop and find this really helps.
However, in your case I do wonder if you may be being a bit too over zealous with washing your intimate area. Try using a bit more SYLk or YES ? A bit for coconut oil might help to moisturise and sooth?
DG x
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It wasn't until I started using Ovestin about 6 months ago that I was completely ok on the outside as well. Vagifem sorts the inside but like you said doesn't always reach the outer bits this is why we use Ovestin for the sore labia. The YES moiturisor will also help the outside. I suffer more with soreness outside because sitting all day at work, weekends and holidays I'm fine. Any soaps will cause problems, including detergents on your pants. I wash my cotton underwear in a 60° wash and then tumble dry, no detergent at all or I'm sore as hell and can feel the ****ly irritation start almost immediately if I don't do this. Until the YES arrives you could try Bepanthan at night, it soothes my soreness and if it's good enough for a baby's skin. As for diet, eating spicy food has never been a problem and I eat a varied diet and always have red wine with my meal.
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I darent use multi gyn inside at the moment. Really don't want to upset things further as it does sting a lot. I'm really not over zealous with the washing though. I'm avoiding the area if at all possible and just use plain water to clean after ive been to the toilet.
Hopefully after the 2 week loading once I go down to twice a week things might settle a bit more. The doctor at the GUM clinic told me to only do 10 days vagifem every day this time because I'd previously used it for 7days, then stopped for 5 days, so I shouldn't need to do the full 14 days. Not sure about that so I was just going to do the 14 days as normal.
I will have a look at the bepanthan Deidre and maybe ask my gp about Ovestin later on as well. I actually tried to buy some ovestin from Superdrug online and they wouldn't sell it to me because I had previously bought vagifem from them (long story had a bit of a mad spell) and they wouldn't let me use both at once even though I insisted that I would only use a tiny bit on the outside.
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You would need a prescription for both Vagifem and the oestrogen cream. I found the team burned like hell but you may find it good.
I'm afraid you may just have to be patient. DG x
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I take Vagifem everyday anyway so it's like a constant reload, I wouldn't worry about doing the full 14 days again if you need it and you might need more than the 2 a week maintenance dose, I don't think many manage on that. I've been using vagifem for 4 years now and at first I hadn't a clue, you only find what works by trying stuff, and what suits one is painfully wrong for someone else. People on here rave about coconut oil, it was like smearing on acid for me! We're all different. Being on this forum gives you all the good information so hopefully it won't take you as long as it did me to sort out what works and what to chuck in the bin. You will also start to learn the things that trigger a flare up and avoid like the plage. Stress and anxiety do it for me and that's a hard one to avoid as it's usually caused by something or someone else, but knowing the cause makes it less scary and you know it's only a temporary blip.
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Thanks DG. I do have to be patient but I'm not good with that :(. I'm down in a hole and can't seem to get out of it.
Yes Deirdre my anxiety over this is making things a whole lot worse than they actually are. Loads of information on here and I do take comfort in it but you are right, everyone is different and you've got to try different things till you find something that works. I think I imagined that once I started on the vagifem it would be the answer to all my problems straight away.
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It is the main answer but we need other aids as well and in the beginning time for it to build up. It's like any other illness really, you would take a pill but also maybe have to change your diet, lifestyle, rest more or exercise more, it's not usually just one thing that's makes it better. Also this is a right pain I know but once it all works you will be fine, it's not an illness as such, its oestrogen deficiency and as long as you keep replacing this it will be ok.
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Well here we go. Day 10 today and I'm determined to get through the 14 day loading. Another bad night with soreness but slightly better this morning after using the vagifem around 5 am but I can't relax as I think it won't last.
There seems to be no rhyme or reason to what's going on and where the pain and soreness is. Inside, outside, urethra, bladder? Soreness, itchiness? I just don't know. It jumps around and I feel like I'm a one off, that these variations are unique to me.
I'm disheartened because I don't think my symptoms were as bad or noticeable before I started using the vagifem but I'm praying it's just the initial start up irritation and that once I'm on the 2/3 times weekly then things will settle down.
Who would have thought such a thing could cause so much distress but my mental state is a big factor in this. Sorry I'm going on about the same things over and over again :'(
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After your initial trial with Vagifem and you stopped using it, did all these symptoms stop?
I've forgotten where you are in the your menopause journey - do you still get periods?
Has your bladder urgency subsided at all or do you still feel you need to pee all the time? Have you tried logging how much you drink and then how long you can go between peeing? It is sensible to have a pee every 3-4 hours anyway so the urine doesn't become too strong or create too much pressure but equally the bladder can contract if you pee too often and being anxious makes us clench and contract that whole area. I do feel your anxiety is really contributing big time to your problem. Are you taking an antihistamine at night to help you sleep? Antihistermines are also often prescribed to help calm the bladder with interstitial cystitis - so you might really benefit from this.
If you can do some relaxation techniques, get out for brisk walks, meet up with friends and distract yourself from this whole thing, then I think you'd find things would settle.
I know that if start thinking about the burning that often triggers a flare up, then it will often start to burn and itch - I know if I'm anxious and start to clench that area the burning and aoreness starts.
Go back to using the Vagifem before bed, take a Nytol or Sleepese as well and I bet this would help. DG x
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Hi DG. No I don't feel like I need to wee all the time. Well not as much as I did when this all started. This had lessened in fact before I started the vagifem and I mainly started using it for the soreness. Now it's mainly the soreness and irritation inside and outside the vagina but when I do need to wee things are more uncomfortable. When I stopped after the first attempt, the symptoms were still there. I just got it into my head that the vagifem had make things worse and kick started everything , but maybe they would have just gotten worse in any case.
I am 8 years post menopause and never had any hrt or anything before this.
My anxiety is dreadful and I can't seem to distract myself at the moment. I don't want to meet anyone or do anything much, it's just too much hard work.
I will try the nytol to help with the sleep but will probably stick to mornings until I go onto the twice a week. Hopefully when I go to twice a week, and I'm back at work I won't be thinking about it so much.
It's just the thought of what I'm experiencing doesn't seem to fit in with the majority of other users and I'm catasrophising that this will never end.
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Ahhhh! If you are that post meno, then what you are experiencing could well be everything waking up with the oestrogen - and this is not a bad thing. When I started back on systemic HRT after a one year break, I got all sorts of tingling, aching and itchiness around my intimate area - the gynaecologist described this as “ the body waking upâ€. I suspect your atrophy may have been quite advanced so now that whole area is going to take some time to plump up and start to be more resilient again. Oestrogen deficiency makes the skin thinner and more sensitive, it doesn't heal so well and will also react more to all irritants. It may take some weeks for your intimate area to restore so you've got to be patient and use Vagifem for the long term.
IT might be wise to do every other day for a couple of weeks once you've done the 2 week load to really get the full benefit more quickly. I've even heard they are giving ladies in their 70s-80s Vagifem because they keep getting UTIs!!
If you are awake at 5am to use the Vagifem then I'm not surprised you are feeing tired and stressed. I still think using it at night, taking a Nytol and then getting a good 6-7 hours sleep ( even if you have to get up to pee once or twice) would be far better than setting the alarm for 5am to use the Vagifem!
You sound so tired and stressed - I think you need more quality sleep to be able to get through this.
It might be worth considering something to help with anxiety - did you discuss this with your GP? DG x
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I'm an early waker and don't wake up especially to use the vagifem. It's just that if I wake up, I go to the loo then use it after.
I am very stressed and emotional. I did bring the anxiety up with the gp but didn't really want antidepressants and tbh I was crying and couldn't really say all I wanted to say, just trying to hold things together. She gave me propranolol which I haven't really taken properly.
That's interesting about waking everything up. I'd never even heard of atrophy till I came here with my bladder problems initially and had no symptoms - sex not a regular thing in my life for various reasons so didn't experience any unusual soreness.
Thank you for trying to help me DG x
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I have heard that Propranolol is quite good for anxiety so perhaps for a short time it might be worth trying it properly. To be suffering so badly with anxiety in this way isn't good. DG x
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Blot my anxiety reached overload and I am back on meds including propanolol. The Vagifem appeared to be working but when I reduced it everything flared up again and the burning spread to my buttocks. I'm back on 14 days loading and it's like starting over, and the GP wants me to reduce it again.I need the nice guidelines to take in to the surgery. Anyone know where to find and download. My life is pretty crap right now
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Sorry to hear that daska. I hope the meds start having an effect soon and give you a break from this.
I've finished the 14 days and have had 2 nights off and I'm on the 2/3 nights a week now. I'll see how I get on. I'm pretty up and down. Sometimes the vag feels ok, not 100% but better than it has been, then it gets worse again. All the moisturisers seem to make me worse as well so having a break from them too, unless I'm desperate and I will try anything.
I'm pretty depressed though and do think the anxiety about it all is making things a lot worse.
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I tried the Facebook group but some of the posts made the anxiety worse so I had to leave. I have read Jane's book though which is very helpful and at least I have options to try.
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I think I might have found what you're looking for daska86. I don't know how to recreate the link here but will describe where to find it. If you look under personal experiences there is a thread near the top coloured purple titled how do you cope with vaginal dryness. Look on Page 68 at the post by dancing girl. Hope that helps
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Blot my anxiety reached overload and I am back on meds including propanolol. The Vagifem appeared to be working but when I reduced it everything flared up again and the burning spread to my buttocks. I'm back on 14 days loading and it's like starting over, and the GP wants me to reduce it again.I need the nice guidelines to take in to the surgery. Anyone know where to find and download. My life is pretty crap right now
Is this what you are looking for daska86? https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/qs143/resources/menopause-pdf-75545477829061
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Thanks ladies think it might be
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I was the same Daska. I had to leave the Facebook group as it wasn't helping, quite a few negative comments which is not what you want to hear.
It's so difficult to not think about it :(
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I'm still waiting for things to improve here. I'm now onto the twice a week vagifem but think I might try every other night for a few weeks. I have had times where I feel ok but then the symptoms come back again and are still moving around, sometimes feeling like I need to wee all the time, then changing to soreness just inside then soreness outside, then aching. My gp told me it could take 2 or 3 months to see an improvement. I feel totally weird and like a freak as I'm sure I'm the only one with random aches and soreness and the only one not to see much improvement :(
On the plus side, I haven't cried for a whole week. That's a bonus.
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You are not a freak and what you're experiencing is not unusual. Your GP is right - it can take some months for things to improve and settle but I can tell you that it is something that will need constant management. I am comfortable about 90% of the time these days but before Vagifem I was constantly sore. Keep going - you are making progress. DG x
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Thanks DG. It's good to hear that because it's very disheartening when you think things aren't so bad but then symptoms come back and seem worse. I'm really sore today and trying to figure out why but I will keep going. I've read it can take many months to see an improvement so I'm hanging onto that.
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I need to use Vagifem every day, twice a week might not be enough for you, I have never been able to manage on the prescribed dose of two even in the peri stage.
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Yes I'm trying every other night and will see how things go. I might have to do every night if there is no improvement x
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Hello I use systemic HRT and since August 2017, vagifem (3 a week) multi-gyn actigel and Yes moisturiser. It really took a year before I can say I'm 95% better...at points I was in despair and felt like giving up but just carried on as what else can you do? Nothing else is really available... keep going it does improve but maybe as I have found out it can take a long time. I also got a lot worse after antibiotics- it makes me wonder the negative effects they have on that area....multi-gyn was a godsend. X
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Thanks Zara69. I will keep going and hope for the best. I was really hoping for some improvement after the initial 2 weeks so a bit disappointed. My gp mentioned hrt but I have no other symptoms so not sure if that would be for the best.
I've been out and about this morning and not too bad but feeling sore now and s bit itchy on the outside which is new.
What does or did it feel like for everyone? I find it so hard to describe. I feel a bit squeezy/stinging/full inside today and my bladder is a bit achey. That sounds a bit silly but I can't explain it properly. At other times my urethra is sore but I don't get burning or stinging when I wee. Then I can get pain in the urethra and I feel like I need to wee. It's been so long since I had periods, and I didn't suffer with them much, so I can't remember what cramping feels like so I don't know if it's this I am feeling.
Is this really VA? It annoys me a little bit when I read about VA and the main “complaint†or issue is pain during sex. It's so much more than that don't you think?
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If you re-read the threads on vaginal atrophy and other threads relating to the bladder it might give you more idea of the variation of symtpoms and sensations. 4 me it was like razor blades up there :o plus the need to pee a lot due to drying and aggravation around the neck of the bladder. Of course, each lady is different and not each will get all of those symptoms.
If the medication is working, albeit slowly, then give it at least 3 months as well as thinking about full HRT as some ladies require both.
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I've read so much on here I'm going boggle eyed :o. Just trying to get it into perspective and get some current opinions and a bit of reassurance.
I'm not sure if the vagifem is causing some of my symptoms. I don't think I was like this before I originally started, I had some of the symptoms but seem to have more now but it could just be a natural progression of the atrophy and perhaps some start up side effects. I will continue though and not give up just yet. I'm seeing the doc at the gum clinic the week after next so will see what she says.
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I never had much pain during sex, would bleed and have little tears afterwards. Everything felt open and gaping...maybe where tissues are thinned out, I felt the urge to wee all the time and felt like everything was prolapsed- again due to thinning? To me it felt like being jabbed inside with a hot burning poker and the outside felt like a bee sting. Felt burning and stinging after a wee. Mine almost felt more bladder related than vaginal...felt really like A bladder infection all the time. Xx
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Zara - that's atrophy to a T!
Some find that the capsule or fillings aggravate an already sensitive region so maybe try Ovestin ?
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Thanks CLKD. When I try putting stuff in the search box it keeps bringing my own posts up, which isn't much help to me.
Does anyone know if the so called “cramping†and aching can come on after 3 weeks use of the vagifem? I thought it would have started straight away. Soz I'm getting a bit impatient again.
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Thanks CLKD. When I try putting stuff in the search box it keeps bringing my own posts up, which isn't much help to me.
Does anyone know if the so called “cramping†and aching can come on after 3 weeks use of the vagifem? I thought it would have started straight away. Soz I'm getting a bit impatient again.
I have also found that my own posts come up when I search Blot. Where are you getting cramping/aching?
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I'm not sure Katejo. Just inside low down, it's a bit achey and so is my bladder. I'm a bit tender all over. It's all so random and changeable and I'm hoping it's normal and just the oestrogen waking things up after all this time.
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I had period type cramps in the first few months on vagifem, don't worry it will settle, its a sign things are coming back to life. I also had sore breasts, leg cramps and anxiety about everything. Couldn't believe I had atrophy (never heard of it) and took a while to come to terms with the fact it was for life. My atrophy came on very suddenly and became severe very quickly also causing a prolapse, so it took a while to reverse the damage. I was also on steroid creams to help heal the raw skin. That was 4 years ago, I'm 62 now and still working fulltime and leading a normal life and managing my atrophy. I also recommend you ask your doctor for Ovestin to use on the outside, i started using this a year ago as well as vagifem and it has made a vast improvement for me.
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Thank you so much Dierdre. That is reassuring. I certainly have anxiety about everything but then I always did. I will plod on and look forward to the sore breasts as well lol. I will ask about the cream for the outside as well.
Have a good evening xx
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I'm not sure Katejo. Just inside low down, it's a bit achey and so is my bladder. I'm a bit tender all over. It's all so random and changeable and I'm hoping it's normal and just the oestrogen waking things up after all this time.
Hi Blot I have something similar but mostly on the left side of the bladder/hip. At moment I am only using my vagifem every 2nd day because I will run out. The GP appeared to agree on the phone that I can use it daily but i don't have enough. I went to request another prescription yesterday. My record on MyGP said I had been given a 1 month supply in early October and was due another now. The health centre records said it was supposed to last me until early December! I have put in a request for another prescription at Boots but it may be refused.
I might have to order some online to cover myself.
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I am using it every other day at the moment. Yes you can order online from Superdrug but at least you know you can get them if needed. It's a shame you are having this struggle with your gp.
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I'm not sure Katejo. Just inside low down, it's a bit achey and so is my bladder. I'm a bit tender all over. It's all so random and changeable and I'm hoping it's normal and just the oestrogen waking things up after all this time.
Hi Blot I have something similar but mostly on the left side of the bladder/hip. At moment I am only using my vagifem every 2nd day because I will run out. The GP appeared to agree on the phone that I can use it daily but i don't have enough. I went to request another prescription yesterday. My record on MyGP said I had been given a 1 month supply in early October and was due another now. The health centre records said it was supposed to last me until early December! I have put in a request for another prescription at Boots but it may be refused.
I might have to order some online to cover myself.
Costs £40
My doctor was on holiday when I requested it via email and the stand in doctor refused it bc I'd been prescribed a low dose HRT patch whivh I never ended up using
The receptionist rang me to say the doctor wouldn't prescribe it as I would be doubling up on HRT which is total nonexense as it's a local Oestrogen with little to no being absorbed systemically.
They're so afraid to prescribe oestrogen due to false studies about cancer but happy to dish out antidepressants like candy
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I'm not sure Katejo. Just inside low down, it's a bit achey and so is my bladder. I'm a bit tender all over. It's all so random and changeable and I'm hoping it's normal and just the oestrogen waking things up after all this time.
Hi Blot I have something similar but mostly on the left side of the bladder/hip. At moment I am only using my vagifem every 2nd day because I will run out. The GP appeared to agree on the phone that I can use it daily but i don't have enough. I went to request another prescription yesterday. My record on MyGP said I had been given a 1 month supply in early October and was due another now. The health centre records said it was supposed to last me until early December! I have put in a request for another prescription at Boots but it may be refused.
I might have to order some online to cover myself.
Costs £40
My doctor was on holiday when I requested it via email and the stand in doctor refused it bc I'd been prescribed a low dose HRT patch whivh I never ended up using
The receptionist rang me to say the doctor wouldn't prescribe it as I would be doubling up on HRT which is total nonexense as it's a local Oestrogen with little to no being absorbed systemically.
They're so afraid to prescribe oestrogen due to false studies about cancer but happy to dish out antidepressants like candy
The doctors do come up with some rubbish. When I first tried Estriol, a different GP insisted that it was only safe to take it for 3 months. I challenged her and she stood up and shouted at me that she had just done a menopause course and knew what she was talking about. I have avoided her ever since then.
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I'm so sore today. 3 weeks in and no improvement. I just can't figure it out. No two days are the same :(. Used vagifem last night but going to leave it for two nights to see if that makes any difference.I feel like giving up.
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Wow! She shouted at you? How dare she! My GP spent two months writing to and waiting for a response from a gynaecologist to see if giving me vagifem would risk my health. Like he couldn't research for himself or make a decision. Pisses me off. I'm the meantime I couldn't sit for more than an hour
Wow as well! Your GP should be able to look Vagifem up and see that it is a fraction of the strength of systemic HRT. I am so tempted to bypass the GP and pay for a private gyno. I will wait until my NHS gyno appt. later this month to see if that makes any difference.
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Blot. You may be sensitive to the fillers or outer coating. Maybe use moistorisers i.e. Sylc instead on the outer labia. Then ask for Ovestin as an alternative?
As for the GP shouting, I would have spoken to the Practice Manager.
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Blot. You may be sensitive to the fillers or outer coating. Maybe use moistorisers i.e. Sylc instead on the outer labia. Then ask for Ovestin as an alternative?
As for the GP shouting, I would have spoken to the Practice Manager.
I didn't think of that at the time and I think that GP has since left the practice. I did later mention it to another GP (without naming the GP concerned) and she seemed quite shocked but didn't say anything.
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Word spreads though ;) and no-where faster than the Health Service.
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I'm back at the gum clinic next week so will see what the doctor there thinks. I feel like I have to give the vagifem a proper go though then I can ask to try something to else if there is no improvement.
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How much improvement have you had though, if there is sensitivity then why wait?
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Try ovestin or estriol cream. Vagifem really really irritates me.
estriol irritated me badly.
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Thanks Birdy. I don't know what to do. I used a vagifem yesterday morning and had a good day overall but didn't have a good night. I'm only on week 4 so I will carry on until I go to the gum clinic next week and see what they think. I will go back to gp though if I don't see some improvement soon.
I'm on the 2/3 times a week now but don't seem any better on the days I don't use.
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I just don't know Birdy. I suppose the way to find out would be to stop it and see how I am. I did stop it after using it for a week - I was off it for 5 days - and didn't feel much different. Then I decided to give it a proper go. The only new symptom on restarting was now I get aching as well which some people have reported.
I'm getting conflicting advice which is understandable as every woman is different and will have different experiences. Im told to stop it, try ovestin, try estriol and also keep going with it. I'll give it another week and see what the gum clinic say.
Its all trial and error apparently.
Any idea how long after you stop using vagifem that it gets out of your system and stops irritating?
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Thanks Birdy. I feel better informed for when I go back to gp. Gonna go to gum clinic for them to have a look then back to gp for a proper discussion. I won't cry this time though.
I'm glad things have improved for you.
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It comes to a point where you decide two things. Is this medication improving my symptoms? Yes or No. Are the benefits out weighing the side effects? Yes or No. If both answers are No ask what your other options are at the gum clinic. I stopped full HRT because both my answers were No after given it a go. I know we all get side effects to start but how long you suffer with them is your choice. There are other options.
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It comes to a point where you decide two things. Is this medication improving my symptoms? Yes or No. Are the benefits out weighing the side effects? Yes or No. If both answers are No ask what your other options are at the gum clinic. I stopped full HRT because both my answers were No after given it a go. I know we all get side effects to start but how long you suffer with them is your choice. There are other options.
It's tricky bc we forget how we felt a week ago even if we leave a diary input. Pain is subjective even to ourselves, over time...