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Author Topic: utrogestan/estrogel support group  (Read 724952 times)

Hurdity

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1755 on: August 11, 2019, 10:32:42 AM »

Hello all, I'm new to post but have read the forum for ages, and find it very helpful.

Been on HRT sequi, various brands via 50 patch, for almost 2 years. Am 48. All the symptoms before, flushes, serious joint aches (neck and back), vertigo, aura migraines, etc etc.

Vertigo completely gone whilst on HRT, joint aches and flushes improved. Migraines hit and miss.

My withdrawel bleed is random, bit more rare, and sometimes have breakthrough bleed which I think is my natural cycle breaking through.

Swapped to Utrogestan with Evorel 50 patches last month as think I'm prog intolerant. Orally was a nightmare, 200 for 14 days first month. Knocked me for 6, (migraines and extreme fatigue). No withdrawel bleed.

Am now trialling 100 vaginally (on day 6) which is much better but am still getting migraines, but not as many.

Question is, should I consider private consultation (Prof Studd) to get my HRT regime sorted? Realise I am slightly self medicating and understand the risk to womb lining if I don't get enough prog...

My life is on hold by how debilitating this is so any amount of money must be worth it if I can return to some kind of normal.

Any advice welcomed  :-X

Sorry to hear you are still struggling Nitajbee and  :welcomemm:. And - my perosnal opinion of course - you really do not need to pay money to see any private specialist and especially not a costly one like Prof Studd, and especially as you are already able to get hold of the HRT he recommends. Please don't waste your money. You could well be disappointed.

The first thing for us to know is what your cycle was doing before you started HRT - had you started missing periods at all and having an irregular (natural) cycle? Thjis will give us an idea of where you are in menopause.

How much, when and whether you bleed will depend partly where you are in menopause, the HRT you are taking (dose and type) and how well you absorb this. Some women do not get a bleed on cyclical HRT ( the figure given on this website is 15 % if I recall).

When I first started HRT I was taking Evorel sequi and then Oestrogen 50 mcg patches with Cyclogest progesterone pessaries (off licence). After about 5 years on a 28 day cycle my bleeds stopped - meaning the womb lining was not building up on the oestrogen and while taking the progesterone, it was not building up further. Because of this I was able to extend my cycle ( ie the number of weeks on oestrogen only). I was post-menopausal by the time this happened.

Research shows that used vaginally progesterone is more effective at protecting the womb lining and limited research suggests that half the oral dose could be used vaginally ie 100 mg vaginally instead of 200 mg orally. Obviously this is off licence so you would need to monitor your bleeds and your womb lining. Do inform your doctor - she needs educating! On higher oestrogen doses and with heavy bleeding a higher dose even of vaginal progesterone might be needed. Until recently I have been using 200 mg vaginally on a longer cycle but have recently reduced my cycle length and the utro dose to 100 mg. The migraines are tough - I sometimes get one while on the utro phase, and sometimes on withdrawal ( like this time - have just recovered from one) - mine last 3 - 4 days when I get them.

Actually the licensed duration is 12 days per 28 dya cycle, not 14 so at least give 16 days on the oestrogen only. Also if you are very late peri-menopause or post-meno some meno docs suggest stretching the cycle to calendar months so you start the 12 days Utro on a fixed date each month - again giving you a bit longer.

I have a theory - but really only that - that if I plump up the vag tissues before and during the utro phase - less will be absorbed systemically than otherwise, so minimising the side effects. So - I shove up Vagifem alternatie days in the week leading up to the utro. Are you on local oestrogen as well?

This cycle it seemed to work because I felt fine on the prog phase (just a bit more tired than usual), but weirdly as above, terrible on withdrawal implying that it had been absorbed systemically!).

If your flushes have not disappeared then maybe you need a slightly higher dose oestrogen patch - this should be the minimum benefit to expect ie elimination of flushes and sweats.

Hope this helps :)

Hurdity x
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westie

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1756 on: August 11, 2019, 10:52:32 AM »

That's really interesting Hurdity, I had no idea that some people don't get a bleed on cyclical progesterone. I assume you would need to have this checked to make sure all is well.
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Nitajbee

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1757 on: August 11, 2019, 11:04:14 AM »

Thank you so much for your reply Hurdity. And it makes sense re private being a waste of money, because I have been lucky to secure Utrogen from my GP.

In answer to your questions - my pescription now is 50 evorel patch 28 days, 200 utro orally 12-14 days. Tried this the first month (last month) utro was absolute hell, hence trying vaginally 100 for a planned 10 days (day 6 now).

Periods used to be on a 24 day cycle, pretty regular. About 4 years ago got peri symptoms which at first GP didn't recognise, so had physio for joint aches and an MRI for vertigo! Periods had slowed right down to every few months. Longest without was 8 months before HRT started, so still peri. Eventally new doc put me on HRT 50 sequi patches (due to migraines) 2 years ago. I struggled with the two week prog/combined patches so asked if I could try Utrogestan instead.

On previous HRT regime I had rare withdrawel bleeds (GP said this was fine) and sometimes breakthrough which as mentioned, I think were due to natural cycle.

I do feel that my natural cycle of 24 days gets confused with the 28 day HRT cycle, not sure it manages to override my own hormones?

Migraines (always aura) tend to be around natural cycle period time so can fall on prog or eostrogen patches, depending on the month.

Interestingly I had 5 month relief for migraines but unfortunately they started again a few months ago.

Guess what I now need is to sort my Utrogestan regime...
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Nitajbee

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1758 on: August 11, 2019, 11:05:56 AM »

Sorry Hurdity, meant to say flushes have pretty much gone, quite rare but do happen sometimes...plus achy joints still randomly.
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juliemargaret

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1759 on: August 14, 2019, 07:04:17 AM »

Hi all....i woke at 5am this morn and felt a bit jittery. As some if you may remember im on 100mg alternate day utro and 2.5 pumps estrogel. Im looking to try a sequi regine from 1st sept as been bleeding an awful lot - 6 in 14 weeks!! Started bleeding last month and only last night did it subside. Im feeling just ok....nowt special haha..just feeling a bit flat and fed up ..no mojo etc..but ok...plodding along i guess ....and which i feel I shouldnt be...not settle for!
 I increased my gel 2 weeks ago to an extra half pump....as was flat and mood low BUT..not sure its made much difference....i dont know!! My boobs though feel heavy and very full....tender! Could this be too much gel....the feeling warm and jittery  (never had before started hrt!!) Should i take my gel back down to 2 pumps see if helps?

Feel like the last 3 months ..well 14 weeks have been focused on this hrt!!

Anyone there to  help or chat?

« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 07:06:23 AM by Jmargaret »
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Dotty

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1760 on: August 14, 2019, 07:06:54 AM »

Hi sore boobs is a sign of too much oestrogen but you won't be helping your body by swapping and changing doses of the gel. You need to stick at one dose for 4-6 weeks before changing. X
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juliemargaret

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1761 on: August 14, 2019, 07:15:57 AM »

Hi dotty. Oh no. Hate all this. Dont feel myself!! My boobs have a tendency to get same when due on etc....and had been happebing quite a bit before i stwrted hrt so think poss just my new normal.....if that makes sense...but jist a few weeks before hrt i did a training programme and lost a bit of weight and it came from boobs (im.very slim anyway) but since hrt theyve grown a bit again haha.

Feel so lost. I was waiting until 1st sept to start a cycle month (and when i think my natural period will start)..so was going to stop the utro from.day 1 then and restsrt day 15.

Is it worth me just stopping utro now and starting on a cycle with it from 15th sept (and just be on gel for now...and until then) or would you say stick to plan and continue regime im.on - alternate utro) and wait until 1st sept when i hopef have a period (altho god knows if have more bleeds before then!!! Never bled as much )

If a cycle is no good im.coming off hrt.....
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 07:28:07 AM by Jmargaret »
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Dotty

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1762 on: August 14, 2019, 11:23:12 AM »

I've just been thinking the same as Birdy that it's the every other day that's not helping. Have you tried 100mg every day to see if that helps? X
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juliemargaret

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1763 on: August 14, 2019, 11:30:13 AM »

Hello birdy and dotty and thank you...
Birdy - how are you. Feeling any better?
Im now beginning to understand.....identify.....tune in...that poss the alterbate not doing the job for me..not suitable and not enough prog.  Feel.so weird today I do and know i have to act....ny dilemma is...what do i do now. Im.a bit scared and worried ive messed up the natural rhythms of my body.since.starting hrt..its consuned me.

Dotty....not tried 100mg every day no.....i didnt want to take orally....as i react to any tabs.....hence me doing alternate vaginally.

Ladies any idea what i can do now....as i cant go on lke this.im.also regretting upping my gel from.2 to 2 half as worried made it all worse. X
 
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Dotty

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1764 on: August 14, 2019, 11:44:10 AM »

Jmargaret.... did you see a menopause specialist? X
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juliemargaret

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1765 on: August 14, 2019, 12:38:03 PM »

Hi dotty..no..i git hrt from my lovely helpful supportive gp...BUT..not after having to tell her that NO i didnt want anti depr...and yes...utro and utrogestan WERE available on nhs (she have me elleste duo which i later declined after nuch research as im.not good with pills) anyway...through this MM forum and dr louisa newsons.info i knew i wanted gel and utrogestan...finally got them....and on my prescript was to take 100mg utro from days
1 -25.....because i dont like tabs i  looked into using vaginally and a top meni doc said to do alternate days (i wasnt under her but she did kindly advise me through her pages...) it was only later i learnt that conti is normally for post meno.....so i then asked her if this was ok me being peri and she said yes! Not to worry...and keep going...give it time (peri women CAN have conti or alternate days too)
Anyway....i continued as was a few weeks into...didnt feel too bad...not much diff neither but bled a lot bit was also told can happen so i didnt worry.  But now im.over 3 months  nearly 4...and not feelin right. Cant get appt wth my gp soon then im.away next friday whrn shes back....but also not sure she will this time be able to help fully....ie....still getting up to date herself!  I was going to look to see if a meno doc local asap for some support as cant get to louisa newson right now. Just dont know what to do. I actually feel a litttle scared today.....sort of detached and spaced out..hard to explain. Been awake since 5am. I mean im ok...been to work etc...but just not feeling myself and want to take action...but dont know how? X
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 01:27:08 PM by Jmargaret »
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juliemargaret

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1766 on: August 14, 2019, 04:03:58 PM »

Thanks so much birdy. Im also gutted you feel awful still. 😣

Inwas.worried i was.overreacting but i.know im not! This is real. Ive been patient and compassionate since i started and know somethings amiss..dont know my a*** from my elbow!!! Rubbing gel....pushing up tablets....🙈

Ok so my next option is to take every eve...vag still....wont this be too much though?  As i thought  the reason for alternate days was because you get more directly to where needed so.dont need 100mg daily?.pls correct me.
And what do you mean birdy...about dr nick would probs have it that i override ny own cycle..what does this mean? Sorry if i appear clueless x

So my options at moment..is to take 100.g every eve.....for time being anyway and leave my gel at 2.5punps. (I was worried i shuldbt have increased gel...but was so tored n moody BUT now thinking maybe this is just because of the alternate yo
yo-ing of utrogestan and maybe 2 pumps was ok after all?!?! How do i know. And then i will know how im.getting on with daily utro if any better etc... OR....can i just start a sequi from now....leave the utro out and from.1st sept start a new cycle of 15.days gel only then add the utro?

Ladies..whats would you do?
Do you also think the low progesterone was making me feel extrememly drained too?

I apol.for all the questions...xx

« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 04:14:20 PM by Jmargaret »
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Dotty

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1767 on: August 14, 2019, 04:32:08 PM »

Jmargaret.... what was the date of your last period before you started hrt? X
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juliemargaret

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1768 on: August 14, 2019, 04:57:23 PM »

Hi dotty.....okay......it was im sure yes Monday 6th May...okay. the one before that was just 2 weeks before ob easter mon 22nd april ....but id been doing an intensive training programme so wondered if this just brought on my period early. Prior to this was aboit 4 weeks before.Just ooking at my calender......and will note...

*22nd april - on
*6th may (2wks) - on
*Fri 22nd april - started HRT
*Wed 29th May - heavy bleed but think
  proper period as would have been
 due round then
*Sun 2nd June bleed stopped
*Fri 20th June - started bleeding
Was very heavy 22nd!
*27th June bleed eased
*Mon 1st July bleed - thinl proper
 period kicked early on as all the feels and felt AWFUL
*sat 6th July bleed seemed to have
 stopped BUT still spotting and visible on wiping after wee!! Right up to 15th July!
*30th July  - spotting/show
*31st  - proper bleed!! Think this was my normal/real.period!
Bleed carried on right up until just now - not heavy just spotting..

So....as you can see.....lots of bleeds....is it no wonder i feel as i do?!






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Dotty

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1769 on: August 14, 2019, 05:05:51 PM »

Hi well I think you need to be on a sequential hrt as you are not advised to start on continuous until you have been period free for 12 months. I think a lot of ladies on here will agree with me.

I'm not an expert on sequential hrt, but I think you can stop utrogestan now and count today as day 1 and then take the utrogestan 200mg from days 15 - 26. Hopefully after a few months your body should get into synch.

Look back at previous posts as I think Hurdity has explained the sequential regime to you and she is far better at explaining than I am. X
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