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[joziel]

Nas, don't worry. If you figure out that's what you need, you'll be able to find someone to prescribe it for you. Might have to go private though 

Pippa has 2 Lenzetto sprays and she tapes over sections of one spray to block it off somehow. I thought I was advanced with my patch-cutting skills but I think that takes the biscuit.

I'm not totally sure about my own experiment last night - I just had the 25 patch on from 6pm till this morning. I didn't get any skipped beat palpitations in the evening, which I was getting at 37.5 (and also before HRT at all) - so that doesn't make any sense, since more or less is causing the same symptom there  I slept well, but I've been sleeping well these past several nights on the 37.5 anyway. And the throbbing and fluttery palps were still there, but even less... not totally gone though. Although perhaps it would take more than 12 hours at 25 for them to go and this probably isn't representative of what 25 really would be like long term...

I think there's probably not much point to repeating the experiment unless I want to trial 25 for longer.

Meanwhile I saw on Instagram today on Louise Newson's thread a post about bone health which says "Even the low dose types of HRT provides bone protection to women".    So there we go... That does seem at odds with what many of her own doctors are doing when they aim for particular levels in bloods, but anyway...

As for dogs, my current 8yo is still unspayed and won't be.    I just can't bring myself to deliberately remove her estrogen. So many of these symptoms are 'silent' - you wouldn't know that women have them without them telling you, you can't see them by looking at someone. What might dogs be suffering... The main risk for not spaying is pyometra. So we just observe her closely and - like we do with human health - we'll treat that if she gets it.

[Marchlove]

I have a friend who had her dog spayed, they removed her uterus but kept her ovaries. I thought that was pretty amazing!
Apparently not many vets know how to do this operation in the uk but it’s becoming more common in the states.
Oh, just realised I’ve hyjacked this thread with doggie talk. Sorry 

[jillydoll]

Yes, we had our dog spayed like that. Apparently, they do it like that in Germany mostly, so the vet told us anyway. He explained how they do it, and Christ above, the traditional way of doing it sounded barbaric! 
It was key hole surgery too, much much better for the dog. Ours recovered much more quickly than our other dog did, who had the ‘traditional’ surgery. No big incision, no trauma to surrounding muscles, and just a small cut to keep an eye on.
It did however, cost a bit more, but if it’s better for the dog, it’s a no brainer. 

My parents dog had pyometre.  She was about 13 if I remember correctly.

[joziel]

Arggg. After my experiment of one night at 25 last night my body is protesting about going back to 37.5 and I had horrible palps and throbbing. Not as bad as a while back and I did get some sleep but no where near as good as things had gotten to.

I don’t know if I should give up and go to 25. It just seems so low 😞 or stick here and hope I adjust to it again. I feel better at 25.

[Marchlove]

Stay where you feel better Joziel xx

[joziel]

I just feel like a failure if I go down to that - and I feel great in the day   

I wish there was some way I could be at 37.5 or even 50 (when I was also fine in the day) until 6pm, and then go to 25 overnight   

Is there any way to do that?! (Without wasting a ton of patches!) I know some women say that the gel or spray wear off by evening - which is why they split the dose. So I could do the full dose in the morning and hope it wears off? But I know that tests have been run showing that blood serum levels stay up on gel and spray, usually...

Or can I take a patch off overnight and then re-stick it on in the morning!?!? 

[Pippa52]

Hi ladies… On the dog spraying theme laparoscopic spats are absolutely brilliant because they leave the ovaries in plus the recovery time is minimal. My son does it at his practice and more and more practices in the UK are starting to do it now. So much kinder on the dog but not quite so kind on the wallet! x

[joziel]

There are 2 different kinds of lap spays. There is the kind where the ovaries are removed and the uterus is left (but shrivels up without the hormones so is okay to leave). I had a previous dog have that done and recovery time was incredibly fast - but she still lost her hormones. She was 6yo though, so we waited quite a long time. That kind originated from mainland Europe and is done a lot in the UK as well.

And then there is the kind they are starting to do more of in the US, what they call 'ovary sparing spays' where they remove the uterus and sometimes the cervix too but leave the ovaries. There are much fewer vets doing that in the UK but there are starting to be some. The dog still cycles and will be attractive to males, but won't bleed.

So all lap spays aren't the same. They are all keyhole surgery but different organs can be removed(!).

[Pippa52]

Joziel …. I was really interested in your post which you described your experience cutting down to 25 patch. As you know I had slightly increased my dose and yesterday and today had the worst day of the whole scenario. Incredible anxiety and panic tachycardia episodes it was really scary and about one hours sleep and still feel dreadful today. It just goes to show how a tiny increase/ or decrease can have quite a large effect in some cases. I really do not fancy ever having another night like last night so I will be reverting firmly back to 2 sprays and try to hang on in at that till the next consult. Will this nightmare ever end ?? Re spaying yes you are absolutely right there are several laparoscopic procedures . Removing the ovaries only is becoming the preferred option by many practices xx

[Marchlove]

Gosh I’m my opinion, keeping the ovaries would be the preferred option. Let’s hope more vets are able to do that x

[joziel]

Pippa, I thought you were getting on really well with the 2 and a quarter sprays? Are you saying that was just because it hadn't had long enough to kick in yet?

I just feel like there is some underlying mechanism going on here for us all. I just find it really hard to believe that we are all so intolerant of this hormone which is identical to the hormone our own bodies made copious amounts of until very recently  Much more of it than we are all struggling with at the moment. What is going on with us all and why does no one have any answers for us? (Beyond dosage changes etc.) I feel like there is something we are missing.

I mean, when I was 21yo, I went on a combined pill (synthetic estrogen) which had the same effect on me as estrogen now is having. That was when I was young still and used to high estrogen levels as I'd been ovulating and cycling. So is it something in us which makes us sensitive to estrogen and if so what exactly? Something genetic?

[Kathleen]

Hello again ladies.

Joziel - I agree that there must be something else going on for those of us who struggle with HRT. As you say could it be genetic or are we over supplied with Oestrogen when we are young and then become super sensitive to it?
Are we affected by receptor distribution? For example even when I came off HRT a few years ago I didn't experience many of the bladder and vaginal symptoms many women complain of. I also didn't get a lot of muscle pain either, for me the menopause has become entirely about the emotional symptoms.

Years ago I read an article where the woman was told that for her, progesterone was more important and was infact the calming hormone, could adding Oestrogen, even in small amounts be a problem for some of us?

It would be nice to think that the response to HRT use was being monitored and data collated. As you say there appears to be some underlying mechanism going on here and it would be reassuring to know what it was being investigated.

Take care.

K.

[Nas]

Hey all,
Hideous here.
My 125 experiment hasn’t worked today. Woke up early, sad, irritated, irritable.. oh my, I actually give up right now!

Maybe it’s this damn coil ? Who knows!!

If I could ditch Hrt, I would. But blessed bladder plays up then.
 
What is the answer?? 🤔

[Nas]

I have also read about progesterone being the calming hormone Kathleen.
Not sure if that includes the coil, but I’m going to take a couple of utrogestan tonight, to see how I feel in the morning.

How hard can all this be?

Pippa, at least you know 2 sprays is your limit, no messing about with that for now, I’m sure!

Joziel, I won’t be asking specialist for 125mg, that’s definite. Not sure what the dose should be in honesty. At least you are sleeping ?

Lillith, how are you today?

Has anyone tried those Health and her supplements? Waste of cash do you think?

[Pippa52]

Hey all,
Hideous here.
My 125 experiment hasn’t worked today. Woke up early, sad, irritated, irritable.. oh my, I actually give up right now!

Maybe it’s this damn coil ? Who knows!!

If I could ditch Hrt, I would. But blessed bladder plays up then.
 
What is the answer?? 🤔

So sorry to read this Nas.  Like you I just wish there was a universal answer for all of us without this roller coaster nightmare. xxx