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[lillith112]

Oh really, that’s good to know. When I googled it just came up with 50 and 100 but maybe that was old info. 

Oh how odd, I've been getting the mx75 for a while now, I just cut it in half to get the 37.5. my Aunty is on the mx25 and has been for decades.

I'm glad both of you are improving on your new dose. Patch change tonight for me.  I notice you both say you are sleeping better, well my sleep is always horrendous, some nights I only get 2-3 hours 😞 I wonder if my estrogen levels are just too low 🤔

Hi lillith - so sorry to hear about your sleep.  Really feel your pain as my sleep has been utter rubbish for some time.  Never have been a great sleeper but lately it was awful so just hoping the improvement continues.  Re your oestrogen levels I can't remember have you had any blood levels done?  I know they are only a guide and symptoms are what count but it would I guess give you a baseline to work from.  Having little sleep makes it so hard.  Its like jet lag but without the nice part of a holiday Have to say I've not been too great today grotty headache but nowhere near as bad as they used to be on the other HRT  xx

Hi Pippa52, I had bloods done about a year and a half ago when I was on the mx50 patch, my levels were 210 which apparently is normal for someone on HRT.  No idea what my levels are now, might be worth going for medichecks home test again as GP won't do it.

I hope your bad head improved. I've been getting really mild bad heads at night and feeling like my muscles in neck and face are tense at night. I've added another bit of my patch to bring it up to 50 this morning, see what happens tonight 😞

[Pippa52]

Hi lillith112  so glad to hear that your bad heads are now milder and I hope so soon they start to fade completely.  Hopefully increasing your dose as you have will help.  Like you I increased my dose 6 days ago with Meno consultant's permission and was doing a bit better but yesterday, as always seems to happen with me, the effect of the larger dose kicked in and I felt like I had overdosed on caffeine all night but today it is more bearable and so far I have no headache etc so I will persevere feeling 'caffeinated' as am hoping it will calm down soon as my body adjusts.  3 sprays is still not a high dose (roughly the same as 2 pumps of Oestrogel I understand) and I certainly would not want to go any higher or otherwise all the other problems that too high a dose caused will come back. Finger crossed for you with you higher dose patch tonight xx

[joziel]

Good luck Pippa, I know those higher dose feelings well 

I am still on 37.5. Overall, I'm doing much better but still happening some... I can be perfectly 100% normal and feeling fine all day, get into bed all sleepy and close my eyes to start to fall asleep - and my heart feels like it's beating harder than usual suddenly. I feel it beating lower down, sort of top of my belly rather than in my chest. And my fingers and feet get a bit pulse-y against the bed. And occasionally I get the jumping just as I'm falling asleep thing. What the heck is going on that this happens at night only... it is some primitive part of your brain for sure! But it is all a LOT less intense than at the higher dosages and I am even managing to sleep through it some nights and get good deep sleep on those nights.

I don't really want to reduce down to 25... I'm going to do a Medichecks estrogen test in a couple of weeks.

[Pippa52]

Sooooooooooooooo...here I go again!! Did what advised i.e. went up to 3 sprays of Lenzetto - yesterday 6 days in felt like I had drunk a squillion cups of strong caffeinated coffee all day and then last night was beyond horrendous - fast heart beat of over 150 beats per minute which lasted about 4 mins but felt like 4 hours gulp then just could not sleep.  So now its back down to a lower dose probably around 2 and a quarter sprays I have been advised.  Sheeeesh will this ever ever end - am beyond fed up today feel completely spaced out and very shaky.  However just like joziel it is totally clear I cannot take higher doses of oestrogen so now its a matter of lower dose but high enough to control symptoms.  Roller coaster continues.  Hope everyone else is starting to feel a bit better? xxx

[joziel]

Oh Pippa don't tell me that, you're supposed to tell me that Lenzetto fixes everything so I can have some hope  I just drafted a letter to email to my Newson GP to ask for some Lenzetto if things don't get better in a few weeks 

How do you do a quarter squirt of Lenzetto then? Doesn't it just do one pump per press, is it possible to be accurate with less than one pump doses?

How come your body tolerated this amount of estrogen relatively recently and now just can't? I know that I've had low estrogen for years because desogestrel suppresses it to around 250nmol or lower - and I've been on desogestrel about 8-9 years before HRT. So my theory for myself is that my body is no longer used to higher doses, a bit like a post-menopausal 70+ year old woman's wouldn't be. But it seems you've been on higher doses pretty recently??

Have you tried doing the whole dose in one go in the morning, with the hope that it wears off by night time, or are you getting symptoms throughout the whole day?

Whilst I am managing to get some decent sleep at the moment, I am still kinda throbbing and pulsing and palpating and I can't live like this long-term because it can't be good for me in other ways and I'd be afraid to!  But I've only been at this level for just over a week and I feel like I need to demonstrate that I've given it a good go... To further confuse things, I'm getting skipped beat palpitations in the evenings now - which was one of my before-HRT symptoms - and some bits of thicker discharge which I think means that I need more vaginal estrogen. I can increase vaginal estrogen but can't do anything about the skipped beat palps... It seems that some parts of me want more estrogen and other parts want less 

[lillith112]

Sounds like we are still all struggling ladies 😞 my sleep at the moment is non existent, I feel absolutely terrible. I'm fatigued and feel quite low. I feel pangs of anxiety and keep feeling like I feel trapped and need to get out of my house, I'm constantly restless even though I've not slept 😳.

My patch is up to 50 now, I know it's early days but I feel rubbish !

Pippa52 I'm sorry to hear you have the caffeinated feeling, I get that a lot, it's vile. I think estrogen is liked with cortisol which would give the caffeinated feelings.

Joziel, I'm sorry to hear you are also struggling. I have been getting return of palpitations on the lower dose too.

I just wonder if I will ever feel normal again 😞

[Pippa52]

Oh Pippa don't tell me that, you're supposed to tell me that Lenzetto fixes everything so I can have some hope  I just drafted a letter to email to my Newson GP to ask for some Lenzetto if things don't get better in a few weeks 

How do you do a quarter squirt of Lenzetto then? Doesn't it just do one pump per press, is it possible to be accurate with less than one pump doses?

How come your body tolerated this amount of estrogen relatively recently and now just can't? I know that I've had low estrogen for years because desogestrel suppresses it to around 250nmol or lower - and I've been on desogestrel about 8-9 years before HRT. So my theory for myself is that my body is no longer used to higher doses, a bit like a post-menopausal 70+ year old woman's wouldn't be. But it seems you've been on higher doses pretty recently??

Have you tried doing the whole dose in one go in the morning, with the hope that it wears off by night time, or are you getting symptoms throughout the whole day?

Whilst I am managing to get some decent sleep at the moment, I am still kinda throbbing and pulsing and palpating and I can't live like this long-term because it can't be good for me in other ways and I'd be afraid to!  But I've only been at this level for just over a week and I feel like I need to demonstrate that I've given it a good go... To further confuse things, I'm getting skipped beat palpitations in the evenings now - which was one of my before-HRT symptoms - and some bits of thicker discharge which I think means that I need more vaginal estrogen. I can increase vaginal estrogen but can't do anything about the skipped beat palps... It seems that some parts of me want more estrogen and other parts want less 

Hi joziel - honestly don't be put off Lenzetto - its just getting the right dose that like all HRT seems to be is the key.  Getting smaller doses is super easy.  I measure across the width of the applicator nozzle (2") then mark the quarter top and bottom and tape across (I use the thick brown tape removal guys use to tape up the boxes when moving house - it lasts and is both strong and durable.)  Each Lenzetto has 56 sprays in so it's not like you have to do it very often.  I get prescribed 2 packs of Lenzetto every time - I use the other one for the 2 sprays and the taped for the quarter.  It stays at a very accurate dose re taping it off I never had a problem with that last year.
Regarding dosage I've not been on Oestrogel  (3 pumps) for over a year now and was put on a much lower dose of Lenzetto when I was changed over (only one and quarter sprays) so have been used to a low dose now for over a year. Then of course it was unobtainable for a while which is why I had to change to patches as gel was not available either .  The last blood test I had done on the Lenzetto my level was 143 and plus I was just starting to get hot flushes etc back so this is why the MC put me on 2 sprays this time and then up to 3. On coming off the patches (3 days only back on Lenzetto my level was only 91 but was told to expect a low level having just changed over.) Been feeling really awful all day today - shaky, jelly legged and cotton wool head couldn't think straight but just beginning to feel a bit better this evening so will go to the lower dose tonight.  I never had any problems at all when first switching to Lenzetto from Oestrogel so feel the patches have really messed me up to be honest.  For me that delivery method just did not work.
I do the whole dose in the evenings as that suits me better about half an hour after a shower and again never had a problem with that until I was changed to the patches. 
I do feel totally  sure that it will all settle down - I know Lenzetto suits me as it did before but it is a matter of getting the dose right now and that's the part that seems to be taking f o r e v e r !!! Its so easy to use I love it. Having changed 3 different types in 3 months on different doses I know my whole system needs to calm down and level off.
So very sorry to hear about your night times.  Oh Jeez do I sympathise.  I was just getting to relax and sleep better at night and then wham - backwards again.  I know a lower dose will improve things just hope it kicks in soon.  I'm so sorry to hear about the skipped beats too.  I hate the palps and heart issues I really feel for you. 
For me I found, as I said before, that the patches gave me a real zap the day after I put them on and always about a week after a dose change I felt the new dose kick in usually making things worse as I was told to increase slowly upwards whereas you and I both know that for us that was going in the wrong direction!  Here's hoping we both find a level playing field very very soon!!! xxxx

[Pippa52]

Sounds like we are still all struggling ladies 😞 my sleep at the moment is non existent, I feel absolutely terrible. I'm fatigued and feel quite low. I feel pangs of anxiety and keep feeling like I feel trapped and need to get out of my house, I'm constantly restless even though I've not slept 😳.

My patch is up to 50 now, I know it's early days but I feel rubbish !

Pippa52 I'm sorry to hear you have the caffeinated feeling, I get that a lot, it's vile. I think estrogen is liked with cortisol which would give the caffeinated feelings.

Joziel, I'm sorry to hear you are also struggling. I have been getting return of palpitations on the lower dose too.

I just wonder if I will ever feel normal again 😞

lillith112 - oh noooo I am so so sorry to hear you are struggling too.  Honestly I truly think all these changes of medications have really messed us all up and our systems are really inflamed and out of sync.  So sorry also to hear you get the caffeinated feelings - along with the anxiety its really so hard to cope with.  I hear you re cortisol as it really feels like that is kicking in especially at night - I think I got about 2 hours sleep last night max so I am so sorry to hear how bad your sleep is too. 
I do honestly think its going to take a bit of time for us all to level out and to do that we of course have to find the right level which seems to be akin to a needle in a haystack at the moment.
Also really sorry to hear about the palpitations.  I really HATE those too.  I feel your pain when you say 'I just wonder if I will ever feel normal again'.  I honestly think you will - I think we all will it's just going to take time unfortunately.  Sending love and hugs to you and joziel xxx

[Pippa52]

FYI  joziel and lillith - don't know if you are on Facebook but if so this is also a useful group .
 They have a live question session every month too with an expert.
 xx.....https://www.facebook.com/groups/midlifemenopauseclinic/

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Welcome to the Women with Ambition, Attitude and Brain Fog community. We exist to support women who are entering midlife and menopause, offering guidance, advice from experience and positivity. From HRT and menopause advice to nutrition and fitness, we've got resources, videos and a network of brilliant experts to help you navigate midlife. You'll find lots more medical and wellbeing resources on our site, mpoweredwomen.net. See less
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[joziel]

I'm in that group already (and several other FB menopause groups ). I tend not to post very much because you never know who else is in these groups and I don't really want friends and family to be reading about my vaginal dryness, hot sweats and when I'm bleeding    But I do read them a lot for info...

[Pippa52]

I'm in that group already (and several other FB menopause groups ). I tend not to post very much because you never know who else is in these groups and I don't really want friends and family to be reading about my vaginal dryness, hot sweats and when I'm bleeding    But I do read them a lot for info...

  totally understand - ditto here Knowledge is power so  many sources can be useful - albeit anonymously    x

[Pippa52]

 I actually slept last night no fast heart beat and today was considerably better than yesterday - the caffeinated feeling has mostly gone but from past experience I know for me that a change of dose seems to take 6 days or so to totally kick in so until a week or so has past I won't know if the lower dose is going to work well.  I hope so much all you ladies have had a better day/night too? xxx

[joziel]

That's great Pippa. So this is on 2 and a quarter of Lenzetto? What was happening before when you were on 2, was that too low and you had some symptoms still?

For me, when I increase doses it takes about a week before I get the too much estrogen side effects. But when I decrease, it is pretty immediate that I get the results, within about 6 hours anyway. So hopefully your improvement will stay...

I am sleeping okay now too (thankfully) - except I know I am still throbbing. It is like one of those things you train yourself to ignore and not pay attention to, since you know you will just wake up more and worry if you do.

So whilst I can sleep, this isn't normal (yet) and it can't stay like this long-term. But after being at 62.5, I was only at 50 for half a week before I came down to 37.5 - and have only been there for 1.5wks so I feel duty bound to remain here a while or otherwise, when I report back to my GP, they will think I have accelerated downwards too fast and not given things a chance! I am going to do a Medichecks finger stabbing test on Monday for estrogen levels.

[lillith112]

Well I'm still hardly sleeping ladies 😞 I'm surviving on about 2-3 hours sleep a night. I've thought about buying some progesterone cream online (progest) and using that as I tried it before and slept like a baby, but would that interfere with my HRT, or doesn't it matter as it's progesterone ?

Also I'm 50yrs old in a couple of weeks, I'm wondering if I could go on a continual HRT or is that a bad idea to mess with it even more ?

I think I'm going to do a medichecks hormone profile to see where I am with all this.

I'm also still losing tons of hair after having covid 😭. I suffer with stress hair loss anyway.

[Kathleen]

Hello ladies.

Can anyone work out a puzzle for me regarding oestrogen doses?

I am in the process of reducing my Sandrena gel as suggested by an NHS consultant. This time last year I was using three 1mg sachets which is the equivalent of six pumps of gel. I am now on one Sachet a day but when I checked my diary from last year my symptoms of frequent jitters and tearfulness seem about the same.

I wonder if any of you knowledgeable ladies who have experience of too high and too low oestrogen effects have any thoughts on this? I am confused as to why I feel the same on one Sachet as three sachets.

Many thanks ladies and wishing you all well.

K.