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[Pippa52]

A quick update.  So far today this has been my most level day since I had to come off Lenzetto 3 months ago due to the shortages.  I have now been back on it for 8 days.  I had some better sleep last night and this evening am feeling less jittery and shaky as well as less fatigued.  Evenings do tend to be my best time of day anyway but the whole day has been an improvement.  Still a way to go but baby steps still going forward. Still no way right but feel today has been a definite improvement I just hope it continues.  Hope everyone can manage to get some sleep tonight in this very hot weather.  I am going to put my pillow case in the freezer for an hour before bedtime and also damp down a sheet and sleep under that so at least will feel cool enough to get off to sleep (hopefully!!) Hope everyone is coping ok xxx

[Nas]

That’s good news Pippa, long may it last..🤞🤞🤞
It’s such a journey, I don’t know how we all manage sometimes!
Do you think lenzetto is the product for you? I wish it was for me as it’s so easy to apply isn’t it ? Just spray and go.

Joziel, you are young and juggling so many hormone balls..I take my hat off to you. One day at a time maybe...
As you say, not sure what the point of bloods are really. They give a figure, that’s it . Then where do we go if it’s ‘reasonable’ but we feel rubbish?

 Hope we get some sleep tonight, I’m dreading work to be honest. Hot classes, hot kids and almost the end of term = everyone grumpy!

[joziel]

I'm so glad to hear good news from one of us  I almost feel like it's my own  That's v good Pippa.

Yes I'm at the Newson Clinic but the thing is that no one knows the answers to these things  If you even read research papers they contradict each other 

Fingers crossed for tonight!

[Pippa52]

I'm so glad to hear good news from one of us  I almost feel like it's my own  That's v good Pippa.

Yes I'm at the Newson Clinic but the thing is that no one knows the answers to these things  If you even read research papers they contradict each other 

Fingers crossed for tonight!

Ah bless you for those kind words. Actually although I slept not bad at all woke feeling quite dizzy today but don't think the heat helps.  Bit of a headache etc but totally expect things to be up and down for quite a while yet. So sorry to hear just how difficult it is for you to get help and advice.  You are dealing with a lot of things at once and I admire you so much for the way you are looking into everything and trying different ways and methods of trying to find an answer.  You are so pro-active that I feel sure you will.  Hope so much today is a better day for you.  I do think listing things down daily is a really good way to see progress or otherwise too as we all do on here.  It is such a help to all of us to talk to like minded ladies who are going through similar experiences as it can be a very lonely place to be otherwise. xxx

[joziel]

Thanks Pippa, that is true. I had a tough day yesterday investigating the Lara Briden stuff: https://www.larabriden.com/

I convinced myself that I'd done a terrible thing taking POPs most of my life - because I stopped ovulation, which in turn (according to this way of looking at things) stops the high progesterone from the corpus luteum - which it is believed is important for future health.

Then I was full of 'it's too late now, I'm too old, I'm peri-menopausal, I can't make this stuff naturally' and a sense that I've done life 'wrong' on this one and it's too late to fix.  Of course it wasn't my fault, I didn't know better, but I was just filled with regret and sadness. I am probably just over-thinking things and being all 'menopause = everything is ending, it's all too late, life is over'    Sheesh I think we all need therapy when we get to menopause, to deal with this stuff 

Anyway, I took levonorgestrel from 21-30yo, mostly because I wanted an insurance policy for contraception. Then at 30yo, I tried to come off all hormones and be au naturel, it had never sat well with me to be on them. But then endo started to creep up on me. I refused to go back on POPs or the combined pill at first and battled it out, but by 35yo when I had my laparoscopy for it, I knew I had to - or potentially face repeated surgeries. So I reluctantly went on desogestrel.   

After a year, I felt like it was shutting me down too much (which is true, it turns out that it suppresses your estrogen levels more than levonorgestrel) so I tried to go back on the levonorgestrel - but I just bled for another entire year - and so went back on desogestrel. (I would have happily continued bleeding, I didn't have any pains - but my doctor had other ideas  ) And so then I just stayed on desogestrel for the last 9 years.

Which is all to say that, in my adult life, I've only not taken a POP of some kind from 30-35yo. And I never wanted it to be that way. It's just how it worked out. I am big into natural solutions and working with the body and if you'd told me this is how things would be when I was 21yo, I'd never have believed it. But I reckon there must be many other women on contraceptives most of their adult lives....!?

Anyway, now I don't know if this is partly why I'm finding it hard to adjust to increased estrogen. Because the desogestrel has kept it really low for so long. Anyway, no point being all woe is me about it now... Of course I also get worried about bone health and whether my bones are okay, to have had such reduced estrogen all my life. So then I went off reading research papers about POPs and bone density and it seems that they are deemed 'bone safe' even though the estrogen levels are kept low on them. Which isn't what the Lara Briden website implies - that terrifies you that you will inevitably lose bone density on them.

Today I am banning myself from researching this anymore after spending hours on it yesterday, with no ultimate conclusions, just wading through differing opinions and not knowing what to think. But I would say that if ALL THIS STUFF WAS ABOUT MEN'S HEALTH, there would be DEFINITIVE ANSWERS on it all by this point!!!!!

I had a good night last night, but it might be that I was just exhausted. I tend to have a couple of ultra rubbish nights and then a night when I sleep - we'll see if it continues. I still felt throbby and got the palps but I like to think they are decreasing.

[Kathleen]

Hello ladies.

Joziel - Do you believe that your extensive use of birth control pills has meant that you are experiencing a particularly difficult menopause? Apologies if I have got that wrong however if so you might find my story helpful.

I am sixty five now and I had my last period twelve years ago. Two years prior to that I started getting
night sweats etc and for three years period free I managed my increasingly difficult symptoms. Eventually in 2013 I began using HRT and apart from a break in 2019 I have been taking it ever since.

In summary I think my menopause has been quite difficult and certainly worse than some friends of mine. I say all this because my use of the birth control pill was minimal.  I didn't really start using it until my mid twenties and came off it to have my daughter when I was thirty two. I never went back on it and then had my son at thirty six and never used it again.

I conclude from all this that my horrible meno could not have been influenced by many years of taking the pill so perhaps the effects of taking it are not necessarily a bad thing.

I know what it is like to research yourself into an anxious state and you have my sympathy but it's worth noting that there are many stories out there and possibly many different outcomes as well.

Wishing you well.

K.

[joziel]

Hi Kathleen, that's interesting. No, it's not so much that I'm having a difficult menopause due to using POPs so much (although I do think it has been difficult to adjust from the very low estrogen levels on POP to introducing a decent amount of estrogen suddenly with HRT - that is why it might have been extra difficult for me).

It's more that Lara Briden's theory is that we need to ovulate normally throughout most of our adult lives to have optimal health in the future and into old age. This means that our ovaries release optimal estrogen levels at ovulation and we get a huge load of progesterone after ovulation from the corpus luteum. If we stop ovulation with BCPs then we don't get all that, our own ovaries and hormones are suppressed (to a greater or lesser extent depending on what BCP we use) and we are getting the synthetic hormones from the BCPs instead.

Synthetic estrogen does have some health benefits and isn't too bad a thing, but synthetic progestins seem to have little benefits to them healthwise compared to natural progesterone - except they can do a great job at keeping the uterine lining thin. But progesterone (natural) does a lot more besides that....

But - I'm probably about to be peri, if I'm not already, so trying to get my endo-afflicted body to start ovulating again now for just a few years might just be more trouble than it's worth (and risk endo getting worse) so perhaps I am best just trying to use body identical HRT to get some hormones back now.

And also, not to forget that stopping ovulation through using BCPs massively reduces the risk of ovarian cancer. Which Lara Briden doesn't really address....

[Pippa52]

joziel....I had endometriosis as well so I know only too well what it was like.  Unfortunately with me it spread extensively all over my  womb so I had to have a hysterectomy when I was 30. All went well until aged 42 it reared it's head again and affected my ovaries - I developed a 'chocolate cyst' and after struggling to control the pain and symptoms the consultant said I really need to have the op to remove my ovaries.  Hence I have been on HRT since then (Oestrogel up until last year)  I just wanted to tell you as I so understand what endo can be like     How are you doing today?  How did you manage with the heat?  I have had a couple of not so good days and nights and am definitely feeling the lower dose now so trying to hang on in there for 2 more weeks as the Meno consultant told me to wait for 4 weeks till I increase it to 3 sprays of Lenzetto.  Headaches, feeling a bit jittery, not sleeping so well, some flushes but thankfully no fast heart beats.  Even like this I am definitely better than I was on the patches but have to say I am looking forward to being able to increase the dose as that will be the equivalent dose I was on all those years when I was on Oestrogel.  Do hope you are starting to pick up? x

[Pippa52]

lillith - - how are you doing?  Hope so much you are improving x

[Pippa52]

I have just heard back from the Meno specialist as she had asked for an update on my progress so had emailed her back.  She wants me to increase to 3 sprays now rather than wait another few weeks so am quite relieved.  Just hope the extra spray finally does the trick.  Will start it this evening - fingers crossed but feel a bit optimistic as this is pretty much the equivalent of what I was on all those years with Oestrogel (just under 3 pumps)  - time will tell x

[lillith112]

lillith - - how are you doing?  Hope so much you are improving x

Hi Pippa52, sorry I've not updated in a while. All seems to be going ok, I'm still on half a 75 patch, so 37.5 and seem to be doing ok on it so far. The headaches have disappeared, mood is level.  I was on 75 dose before the shortage of Estraderm, I think I'll stay on the 37.5 unless any symptoms come creeping back. I feel no different now to when I was on the higher dose, very weird !  🤔

I'm glad to read you are improving and are able to increase your dose, fingers crossed you see good results ☺️

[joziel]

Lillith, snap I'm also on 37.5 now.

Pippa, I didn't realise you had a history of endo. That sounds really difficult and more widespread than mine. Mine seemed to be what they call superficial, no adhesions, just a few patches of it at the laparoscopy and none on my ovaries. And it seems to respond well to suppression with progesterone.

I've done 3 nights at the new 37.5 dose. It's MUCH better. Although I still occasionally semi-wake, and in half sleep realise I feel a bit throbby, but make myself go back to sleep again and it seems to stop again. When I am throbbing(!), the entire mattress no longer seems to be moving  and it seems to be mainly in my hands that I feel it, and much much less than on higher doses. There has definitely been a massive improvement since reducing the estrogen dose. It's not 100% resolved and I'm just hoping it goes away as I don't want to reduce further.

I do feel like a bit of a "failure"  for not being able to tolerate a higher dose. I mean, if I was only 233nmol at 50 I don't really want to think about what I am at with a 37.5 patch. I don't understand why I can't tolerate a higher dose. The only thing I can randomly imagine is that I was on the desogestrel POP for 9 years which kept my estrogen levels very low. And so this is a big change.

And then I get very confused... Because I did some research (dangerous!), and I don't get this: Apparently POPs are bone-safe, including desogestrel and levonorgestrel which are the two I've been on. But the levels of estrogen they caused in women were around 50-170nmols. And there are some studies which claim that for HRT to protect bones, you need at least 250nmol to maintain bone density. (And 400nmols to improve it.) So how can the same estrogen levels be bone safe on POPs and cause bone loss on HRT?? It doesn't make any sense. Like so many things in women's health.

And then.... there are many other studies looking at low dose HRT which found that any dose at all, even very very low dose estrogen, protects bones. And then there is this whole discrepancy with the BMS saying you should just treat for symptoms and forget about serum estrogen and not even test for estrogen until someone wants over 100mcg patch for symptom control. And meanwhile other doctors trying to achieve certain minimum serum levels.

Really, to be on the safe side, I would like to be able to tolerate at least a 50 and be around 250nmol. But I just can't. So I feel like a failure. 

[lillith112]

Lillith, snap I'm also on 37.5 now.

Pippa, I didn't realise you had a history of endo. That sounds really difficult and more widespread than mine. Mine seemed to be what they call superficial, no adhesions, just a few patches of it at the laparoscopy and none on my ovaries. And it seems to respond well to suppression with progesterone.

I've done 3 nights at the new 37.5 dose. It's MUCH better. Although I still occasionally semi-wake, and in half sleep realise I feel a bit throbby, but make myself go back to sleep again and it seems to stop again. When I am throbbing(!), the entire mattress no longer seems to be moving  and it seems to be mainly in my hands that I feel it, and much much less than on higher doses. There has definitely been a massive improvement since reducing the estrogen dose. It's not 100% resolved and I'm just hoping it goes away as I don't want to reduce further.

I do feel like a bit of a "failure"  for not being able to tolerate a higher dose. I mean, if I was only 233nmol at 50 I don't really want to think about what I am at with a 37.5 patch. I don't understand why I can't tolerate a higher dose. The only thing I can randomly imagine is that I was on the desogestrel POP for 9 years which kept my estrogen levels very low. And so this is a big change.

And then I get very confused... Because I did some research (dangerous!), and I don't get this: Apparently POPs are bone-safe, including desogestrel and levonorgestrel which are the two I've been on. But the levels of estrogen they caused in women were around 50-170nmols. And there are some studies which claim that for HRT to protect bones, you need at least 250nmol to maintain bone density. (And 400nmols to improve it.) So how can the same estrogen levels be bone safe on POPs and cause bone loss on HRT?? It doesn't make any sense. Like so many things in women's health.

And then.... there are many other studies looking at low dose HRT which found that any dose at all, even very very low dose estrogen, protects bones. And then there is this whole discrepancy with the BMS saying you should just treat for symptoms and forget about serum estrogen and not even test for estrogen until someone wants over 100mcg patch for symptom control. And meanwhile other doctors trying to achieve certain minimum serum levels.

Really, to be on the safe side, I would like to be able to tolerate at least a 50 and be around 250nmol. But I just can't. So I feel like a failure. 

Joziel, have you ever tried the patch that I'm on, Estraderm ?  I've had zero side effects on it even going up to 75 dose.  I couldn't tolerate Evorel 75 or Estradot even when cut in half.  It might be worth a try as I feel Estraderm is a lot more gentle than the others so you may be able to tolerate a higher dose of it ?

[joziel]

That's interesting lillith. What were your symptoms when you tried the other patches? That's amazing you can go up to 75 on the Estraderm and not even half that on the others. Do you know if you're absorbing the Estraderm though? I'm not allergic to the patch, I don't have skin reactions or feel itchy or anything like that.

I will for sure check it out! Although currently seem to have a load of Estradots in the cupboard 

[Marchlove]

Hi All

Under section 6 it has the ingredients of Estraderm

https://emc-prod-ukwest-wa.azurewebsites.net/emc/product/5839/pil

Doesn’t say if it’s made from soy or yams though.

X