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[Dandelion]

Thank you, can I ask when do you take the oral and the vaginal Utrogestan? And when to you spread Oestrogel?

I spread the oestrogen on both arms 1 pump each at around 7-8pm nightly
I take the oral and vaginal utrogestan last thing at night.

[Sage 🍃]

Thank you. I've sent you a PM.

[Dandelion]

Thank you. I've sent you a PM.

Thanks I saw it, much appreciated, I sent the reply just now. x

[Uptick]

Hi Dandelion, I knew I had seen Diazepam mentioned whilst researching about Utrogestan and it's in the patient information leaflet.

"Other medicines and Utrogestan

Utrogestan can affect the way some other medicines work. Also some medicines may interfere with the effect of Utrogestan. This might lead to irregular bleeding. This applies to the following medicines:

Medicines for epilepsy (such as phenobarbital, phenytoin and carbamazepine);
Medicines for tuberculosis (such as rifampicin, rifabutin);
Medicines for HIV infection (such as nevirapine, efavirenz, ritonavir and nelfinavir);
Herbal remedies containing St John’s Wort (Hypericum perforatum);
Bromocriptine used for problems with the pituitary gland or Parkinson’s Disease;
Ciclosporin (used to suppress the immune system);
Ketoconazole, griseofulvin, terbinafine (used for fungal infections);
Water tablets (spironolactone);
Antibiotics (ampicillins, tetracyclines);
Antisteroids (medroxyprogesterone acetate, megestrol)
Medicines to prevent blood clots (such as coumarins, phenindione)
Diabetic medicines
Emergency contraceptives (ulipristal acetate)
Diazepam
Tizanidine (used in multiple sclerosis)
Tell your doctor or pharmacist if you are taking, have recently taken or might take any other medicines including medicines obtained without a prescription, herbal medicines or other natural products."

I suppose this could explain your irregular bleeding. Maybe you could try another progestogen.

[Dandelion]

Hi Dandelion, I knew I had seen Diazepam mentioned whilst researching about Utrogestan and it's in the patient information leaflet.

"Other medicines and Utrogestan

Utrogestan can affect the way some other medicines work. Also some medicines may interfere with the effect of Utrogestan. This might lead to irregular bleeding. This applies to the following medicines:

Medicines for epilepsy (such as phenobarbital, phenytoin and carbamazepine);
Medicines for tuberculosis (such as rifampicin, rifabutin);
Medicines for HIV infection (such as nevirapine, efavirenz, ritonavir and nelfinavir);
Herbal remedies containing St John’s Wort (Hypericum perforatum);
Bromocriptine used for problems with the pituitary gland or Parkinson’s Disease;
Ciclosporin (used to suppress the immune system);
Ketoconazole, griseofulvin, terbinafine (used for fungal infections);
Water tablets (spironolactone);
Antibiotics (ampicillins, tetracyclines);
Antisteroids (medroxyprogesterone acetate, megestrol)
Medicines to prevent blood clots (such as coumarins, phenindione)
Diabetic medicines
Emergency contraceptives (ulipristal acetate)
Diazepam
Tizanidine (used in multiple sclerosis)
Tell your doctor or pharmacist if you are taking, have recently taken or might take any other medicines including medicines obtained without a prescription, herbal medicines or other natural products."

I suppose this could explain your irregular bleeding. Maybe you could try another progestogen.

Hi

Thanks for the list, I can't try another progestogen as it will disrupt my GABA and send me round the twist.
What I want to know is why Diazepam only started making me bleed irregularly 3 years after I started taking the utro, and then the bleeding only started when taking it daily.
Do you know how it interferes with utro, I Can only find pharmaceutical articles which are double dutch to me, I need something which tells me in plain English.
I am worried that the diazepam is cancelling out the utrogestan or increasing the oestrogen.

[Uptick]

My idea is that you keep taking oral Utro100, to keep your GABA receptors positively modulated by progesterone, and stop vaginal Utro100 replacing it with another progestogen (that doesn't interfere with GABA receptors) just to oppose oestrogen at the endometrium level and stabilise the bleeding.

You can send me the links to the articles, if you want me to 'translate' the technical information.

Don't worry about Valium/Diazepam 'cancelling out' Utro and increasing oestrogen. Benzos can decrease the bioavailability of BOTH steroids and as long as their job is being done, relieving menopause symptoms and keeping the endometrium healthy, it doesn't matter what Valium is doing to them. 

I think Utro is not suitable for you as an oestrogen opposing drug, you need a more stable progestogen that don't interfere with GABA receptors and is not influenced by Valium. Utro is suitable for you as a GABAergic drug to help you taper off Valium.

Hope this makes sense to you.

[Dandelion]

My idea is that you keep taking oral Utro100, to keep your GABA receptors positively modulated by progesterone, and stop vaginal Utro100 replacing it with another progestogen (that doesn't interfere with GABA receptors) just to oppose oestrogen at the endometrium level and stabilise the bleeding.

You can send me the links to the articles, if you want me to 'translate' the technical information.

Don't worry about Valium/Diazepam 'cancelling out' Utro and increasing oestrogen. Benzos can decrease the bioavailability of BOTH steroids and as long as their job is being done, relieving menopause symptoms and keeping the endometrium healthy, it doesn't matter what Valium is doing to them. 

I think Utro is not suitable for you as an oestrogen opposing drug, you need a more stable progestogen that don't interfere with GABA receptors and is not influenced by Valium. Utro is suitable for you as a GABAergic drug to help you taper off Valium.

Hope this makes sense to you.

Hi Uptick and thanks for your answer

The progestogen will still alter my GABA levels, even vaginally. They still have allo as metabolite.
People on the benzo forum have stopped prog cream and had withdrawals.
To be honest, not only can I not find the articles, they just fuel my anxiety.

Benzos can decrease the bioavailability of BOTH steroids and as long as their job is being done, relieving menopause symptoms and keeping the endometrium healthy, it doesn't matter what Valium is doing to them. 

I'm worried because the Diaz might be decreasing the bioavailability of progesterone causing bleeding.
Why don't you think utro is suitable?
It was suitable for a few years with no bleeding, and I am on less valium now.

[Uptick]

The metabolism of synthetic progestins is not well known, but it is known that Levonorgestrel can decrease allopregnanolone levels and Drospirenone doesn't affect them. Actually, even estradiol can increase allopregnanolone levels without the aid of any progestogen, so don't focus on this or you will end up mad. It's trial and error, I'm afraid.

Benzo forums might not be a great idea, many members are obsessed with their own addiction and this may cloud their judgement, not to mention most of them don't have a scientific background to state these things, when even scientists are cautious about them.

Progesterone creams are probably compounded and there are many different ones in the market, there's no way you can rely on these reports.

I don't think Utrogestan is suitable for 2 reasons:

1. The manufacturer says it can cause irregular bleeding when taken along Diazepam/Valium. That's exactly what's happening to you. When you say you have taken Utro in the past and was not bleeding, when exactly did this happen? I couldn't find it in your previous posts.
You have changed sequential to continuous regime, you have changed oral to vaginal and now you're having both routes. Many things have changed, and time is also a factor when considering the effect of continuous exogenous progesterone, not only progesterone receptors but also oestrogen receptors can be up or down-regulated.

2. Utrogestan is the same as your own progesterone. It affects many cells besides the endometrial cells. It affects your neurons. It is a neurosteroid. Synthetic progestogens (or progestins) can have different effects. The word out there is that micronised progesterone is safer because it's identical to our own progesterone, but for some women, their own progesterone is the cause of many bad reactions (PMS, PMDD, postnatal depression). In your case, it's bad because it can mess up with Valium and your brain health. If you can find a progestogen that doesn't interfere with Valium, I think you could control the bleeding. Again, it's trial and error, but scientific data can help you (and your doctors) to choose a better option.

This is a straightforward article on progesterone and synthetic progestins effects in the brain.

https://jme.bioscientifica.com/view/journals/jme/57/2/R109.xml

[Dandelion]

The metabolism of synthetic progestins is not well known, but it is known that Levonorgestrel can decrease allopregnanolone levels and Drospirenone doesn't affect them. Actually, even estradiol can increase allopregnanolone levels without the aid of any progestogen, so don't focus on this or you will end up mad. It's trial and error, I'm afraid.

Benzo forums might not be a great idea, many members are obsessed with their own addiction and this may cloud their judgement, not to mention most of them don't have a scientific background to state these things, when even scientists are cautious about them.

Progesterone creams are probably compounded and there are many different ones in the market, there's no way you can rely on these reports.

I don't think Utrogestan is suitable for 2 reasons:

1. The manufacturer says it can cause irregular bleeding when taken along Diazepam/Valium. That's exactly what's happening to you. When you say you have taken Utro in the past and was not bleeding, when exactly did this happen? I couldn't find it in your previous posts.
You have changed sequential to continuous regime, you have changed oral to vaginal and now you're having both routes. Many things have changed, and time is also a factor when considering the effect of continuous exogenous progesterone, not only progesterone receptors but also oestrogen receptors can be up or down-regulated.

2. Utrogestan is the same as your own progesterone. It affects many cells besides the endometrial cells. It affects your neurons. It is a neurosteroid. Synthetic progestogens (or progestins) can have different effects. The word out there is that micronised progesterone is safer because it's identical to our own progesterone, but for some women, their own progesterone is the cause of many bad reactions (PMS, PMDD, postnatal depression). In your case, it's bad because it can mess up with Valium and your brain health. If you can find a progestogen that doesn't interfere with Valium, I think you could control the bleeding. Again, it's trial and error, but scientific data can help you (and your doctors) to choose a better option.

This is a straightforward article on progesterone and synthetic progestins effects in the brain.

https://jme.bioscientifica.com/view/journals/jme/57/2/R109.xml

Hi thanks for the article, I am REALLY worried now.
That's just it, I can't afford to tinker with trial and error. If you would have seen me when I was on sequi HRT I had violent meltdowns when not taking the utro.
Also, I don't want to pollute the environment with synthetics, they would alter my GABA and effectively derail it.
There is a few on the benzo forums who do have scientific backgrounds, I wish I had read their posts before going on hrt.

When I took utro, I took it sequentially - no bleeds, but started going loopy, took it without bleeds for 6 months then the bleeding started.
I am on a lot less valium now.
Can you elaborate on this please and is is good or bad news for me

time is also a factor when considering the effect of continuous exogenous progesterone, not only progesterone receptors but also oestrogen receptors can be up or down-regulated.

How is time a factor?
IS this good news? I need some good news.

How can utrogestan mess with my brain health? This really scares me, I am anxious to know, could I get brain damage from it?

[Uptick]

No, you don't need to be worried. You're just having the normal reaction of someone who is on a health anxiety loop.

If you post a link to this benzo forum I can tell you if their scientific background is enough to counteract their own emotional issues. I doubt it.

You don't need to tinker with trial and error, you just need to stop overthinking before you actually do something to change your current situation, otherwise you will have only one option: wait and hope the bleeding will stop.

You don't need to stop Utro. You will keep taking it orally  to provide enough allopregnanolone to your GABA receptors. All you need is to discuss with your doctors which progestogen you could add for endometrial safety. I can suggest some, based on scientific data, but unfortunately, science is not miraculous, each woman can have different side effects, that's why it's trial and error.

I'm confused. You took Utro sequentially and didn't bleed? You're supposed to bleed on a sequential regime.

The fact that you're on less Valium is good, but this is not preventing the bleeding which is your current issue, so if you're not having any violent meltdowns now, it means you're stable. If you stop vaginal Utro you could relapse, so I understand your situation and this is a risk, but you have to do it under medical supervision. There's medication available to stop withdrawal symptoms.

Long term continuous  exogenous progesterone is not a natural occurrence. The body produces progesterone in pulses when ovaries are cycling. After menopause, progesterone levels decline and remain very low. Utrogestan was designed for luteal support during pregnancy. It's taken at high amounts but once pregnancy is successful, women will stop taking it. The effects of continuous high levels of progesterone on the regulation of steroid receptors or brain chemistry are not known. You want to know what is going to happen, but this is simply not the case. We don't know, that's why it's trial and error, but with great probability of success if it's done under medical supervision.

I understand you are afraid of going back to doctors for all the reasons you have mentioned, but I don't think any suggestions given on this forum or benzos forums will be useful if you don't have a doctor's support. What do you think you can do? Change medications based on someone's opinion? This is dangerous.

[Uptick]

And don't worry about polluting the environment with synthetic progestins. You will excrete their metabolites. Natural progesterone and estradiol metabolites can be dangerous as well.

[Dandelion]

No, you don't need to be worried. You're just having the normal reaction of someone who is on a health anxiety loop.

If you post a link to this benzo forum I can tell you if their scientific background is enough to counteract their own emotional issues. I doubt it.

You don't need to tinker with trial and error, you just need to stop overthinking before you actually do something to change your current situation, otherwise you will have only one option: wait and hope the bleeding will stop.

You don't need to stop Utro. You will keep taking it orally  to provide enough allopregnanolone to your GABA receptors. All you need is to discuss with your doctors which progestogen you could add for endometrial safety. I can suggest some, based on scientific data, but unfortunately, science is not miraculous, each woman can have different side effects, that's why it's trial and error.

I'm confused. You took Utro sequentially and didn't bleed? You're supposed to bleed on a sequential regime.

The fact that you're on less Valium is good, but this is not preventing the bleeding which is your current issue, so if you're not having any violent meltdowns now, it means you're stable. If you stop vaginal Utro you could relapse, so I understand your situation and this is a risk, but you have to do it under medical supervision. There's medication available to stop withdrawal symptoms.

Long term continuous  exogenous progesterone is not a natural occurrence. The body produces progesterone in pulses when ovaries are cycling. After menopause, progesterone levels decline and remain very low. Utrogestan was designed for luteal support during pregnancy. It's taken at high amounts but once pregnancy is successful, women will stop taking it. The effects of continuous high levels of progesterone on the regulation of steroid receptors or brain chemistry are not known. You want to know what is going to happen, but this is simply not the case. We don't know, that's why it's trial and error, but with great probability of success if it's done under medical supervision.

I understand you are afraid of going back to doctors for all the reasons you have mentioned, but I don't think any suggestions given on this forum or benzos forums will be useful if you don't have a doctor's support. What do you think you can do? Change medications based on someone's opinion? This is dangerous.

Hi Uptick, I really appreciate you getting back to me. I forgot to say that Levonorgestrel can decrease allopregnanolone levels, you are right, that is why I went nuts when I didnt take utro daily, as allopreg is a cross tolerant to Benzos.
The bleeding did stop for a few months, then it came back, stopped and came back, today, nice small black clots and red on tissue. Sorry for the graphic description.

This is it, I cannot afford to tinker with trial and error regarding progestins. I broke a computer, I smashed a glass door by head butting it, and many other things.
Too much of a safety risk.

Increasing the oral dose will be like increasing valium. Progesterone may increase blood plasma levels of diazepam. https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/product/352/smpc#gref
Synthetic progestins are hazardous to aquatic life

When I took utro sequentially I did have scheduled bleeds, but that's normal isn't it? 200mg a day and a twelve day break.
I only started taking it conti when I went nuts, didnt see doc so took 100mg daily without the 12 day break.

I have a lot of non medical problems, the meltdowns are suspected autism, I have an autism assessment scheduled for 13th October. Had them all my life, my arms are butchered because I bite them, before my current non medical worries of the last few years I used to bite them but not tear the flesh.
I never used to headband until my head bled.

I've had medication before, lots of it, had meltdowns on that, turned me into a zombie.

This is what scares me about brain damage
{quote}The effects of continuous high levels of progesterone on the regulation of steroid receptors or brain chemistry are not known. You want to know what is going to happen, but this is simply not the case. We don't know, that's why it's trial and error, but with great probability of success if it's done under medical supervision.[/quote]

I don't know what I should do, the doctors are clueless.
Here are the links from the benzo site you asked about. Thanks for looking at them, there is lots of info.
http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=47259.0
http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=44150.0

I can add more but there is lots of info, for you to be going on with.

[Dandelion]

And don't worry about polluting the environment with synthetic progestins. You will excrete their metabolites. Natural progesterone and estradiol metabolites can be dangerous as well.

I didnt know natural progesterone is a pollutant and natural oestrogen.
I can't change progestin as I will go nuts due to the alteration to my GABA, the levonorgestrel affect on allo.

[Uptick]

I didnt know natural progesterone is a pollutant and natural oestrogen.
I can't change progestin as I will go nuts due to the alteration to my GABA, the levonorgestrel affect on allo.

They're not. You have said the word 'pollute'. I was just quoting you. 'Also, I don't want to pollute the environment with synthetics, they would alter my GABA and effectively derail it.' By the way, Utrogestan and estradiol in patches and gels are not derived from plants, as many people believe, all hormones are now produced by microorganisms, using estrone obtained from China (so who knows where it came from). They're all semi-synthetic.

What do you mean by 'derail' GABA? Were you 'nuts' before you took Utrogestan?

I didn't say you have to increase the oral dose... I said continue to take Utro 100 mg.

You should be concerned with your mental health and this continuous bleeding. By taking synthetic progestins you won't be damaging aquatic life beyond what's already happening...

Yes, scheduled bleed is normal on sequential Utro, but you've said you had 'no bleed', that's why I've asked.

I'm sorry you had so many issues, you clearly need medication besides HRT, your symptoms are not just from hormonal imbalance, but the bleeding probably is, that's what I'm trying to address here, since this is your current concern.

Thanks for the links!

I guess you have already decided that:

1. you can't change your Utro regime (which by the way is very unusual), because you are convinced (although not even neuroscientists can vouch for it) that any change will affect your GABA receptors and you will have horrible symptoms;
2. you hope that the bleeding will stop on its own;
3. you won't be going to the doctors.

So how can anyone here (or on the benzo forum) help you?

Sorry for being thick, but I can't understand what do you expect?

[Dandelion]

I didnt know natural progesterone is a pollutant and natural oestrogen.
I can't change progestin as I will go nuts due to the alteration to my GABA, the levonorgestrel affect on allo.

They're not. You have said the word 'pollute'. I was just quoting you. 'Also, I don't want to pollute the environment with synthetics, they would alter my GABA and effectively derail it.' By the way, Utrogestan and estradiol in patches and gels are not derived from plants, as many people believe, all hormones are now produced by microorganisms, using estrone obtained from China (so who knows where it came from). They're all semi-synthetic.

What do you mean by 'derail' GABA? Were you 'nuts' before you took Utrogestan?

I didn't say you have to increase the oral dose... I said continue to take Utro 100 mg.

You should be concerned with your mental health and this continuous bleeding. By taking synthetic progestins you won't be damaging aquatic life beyond what's already happening...

Yes, scheduled bleed is normal on sequential Utro, but you've said you had 'no bleed', that's why I've asked.

I'm sorry you had so many issues, you clearly need medication besides HRT, your symptoms are not just from hormonal imbalance, but the bleeding probably is, that's what I'm trying to address here, since this is your current concern.

Thanks for the links!

I guess you have already decided that:

1. you can't change your Utro regime (which by the way is very unusual), because you are convinced (although not even neuroscientists can vouch for it) that any change will affect your GABA receptors and you will have horrible symptoms;
2. you hope that the bleeding will stop on its own;
3. you won't be going to the doctors.

So how can anyone here (or on the benzo forum) help you?

Sorry for being thick, but I can't understand what do you expect?

Hi Uptick and thanks for your reply

Sorry I forgot to mention to you, my breasts have been tender while I have been bleeding like they used to be when I was menstrusting pre menopause and pre peri. Should have said that earlier.
I am sorry I struggle with words, I have an autism assessment booked on 13th October to see if I am autistic.
I meant that excreted progestins cause problems with aquatic life. I am not sure if micronised progesterone does too.
Swapping my utrogestan for a synthetic would send me nuts because it would alter my gaba, especially levonorgestrel due to its effect on progesterones metabolite alloprnanolone.

By the way, Utrogestan and estradiol in patches and gels are not derived from plants, as many people believe, all hormones are now produced by microorganisms, using estrone obtained from China (so who knows where it came from). They're all semi-synthetic.

So we are being lied to?
Why are they called bio identical if they are semi-synthetic?
Where can I find info on this, info I can understand?
Everything seems to come from China, look at coronavirus.

By 'derail' GABA? I mean how mental I went on there 12 days I was not taking the oral 200mg utro when addicted to valium. Rages etc. The change in my mental health when I started taking it daily was noted by my psych nurse who said I was more stable.

I didn't say you have to increase the oral dose... I said continue to take Utro 100 mg.

I will continue to take the oral utro, but that was not enough, that's what started the bleeds, and that was why the vaginal 100mg was added.

You should be concerned with your mental health and this continuous bleeding. By taking synthetic progestins you won't be damaging aquatic life beyond what's already happening...

I am concerned with my mental health but I cannot remove the non medical serious stressors that are affecting it.
I do want the bleeding to stop but I cannot alter the progesterone, as it will derail GABA and send me mental with rages as explained above. I wonder if I should reduce the gel from 50mcg to 25mcg I wont do this right now.

Yes, scheduled bleed is normal on sequential Utro, but you've said you had 'no bleed', that's why I've asked.

Yeah I was normally bleeding on sequential Utro back in peri, I only had no bleed for the first six months when I started taking the utro 100mg oral daily, then random bleeds after that. Sorry if I Was unclear.

I'm sorry you had so many issues, you clearly need medication besides HRT, your symptoms are not just from hormonal imbalance, but the bleeding probably is, that's what I'm trying to address here, since this is your current concern.

What type of medication? I have tried all different sorts of antidepressants even antipsychotics at low dose for anxiety, psych knows I am not psychotic, they all had bad effects.

You are welcome about the links, when you have had chance I would love to know what you think.

It's not that I am being stubborn, I cannot change utro regime because of the allopregnanalone metabolite being cross tolerant with valium and sending me into rages and going mental.
Also the links have information in them about horrible symptoms from women. The first post and other posts are from a knowledgeable woman.

I knew an American  woman who was on 13mg prescribed bio identical progesterone cream, she reduced it to 11mg. She had been benzodiazepine dependent. She messaged me, then got incapacitated after she reduced it, so ill, she couldn't even message me. Other women on the benzo forum have had horrible experiences with progesterone.
I did have horrible rage meltdowns when addicted to valium on the sequential regime, these rages came when I was not taking the utrogestan, so I have experienced them myself and they are a safety risk, broken belongings, black and blue face, cut head through head butting things.
I just want the bleeding to go away, once its gone for more than a few months I will see the doctor.
The problem is too complex to go to the doctors, even if I write a bullet pointed note, it will be too long for them to read, they have commented before when I took long notes in about other issues.
If I knew how people could help me I would know what help I need and would ask for it, I don't mean to sound rude, just dunno how to word that sentence.
You are not thick, far from it.  I look forward to hearing from you after reading the links.
I will be happy to provide any more information that you may require.