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[MichiHope]

Hi ladies.   I do not know anymore what to do?   I feel so severely depressed and cannot stop crying and despairing.  Feel at real crisis level and nearly went to A&E today as i do not know how much longer i can keep going like this.   I have been referred by our local NHS menopause nurse (years of despairing with me I think) to Dr Anthony Parsons in Coventry  (I live in Rugby) who changed me from Tibolone to Oestrogel and Utrogestan.   However no improvement in my mood after 2 months so he changed me to 4 squirts and since my appointment with him last Wed (11th Dec) to 6 squirts of Oestrogen with an experiment of cutting out the Utrogestan for 6 weeks until my next appointment as I have always suffered bad PMS in the past and wondered if Progesterone intolerant?  I am postmenopausal, 55 years and at a level of depression, feeling of derangement and despair i have not know to such a chronic level before in my life.  I feel I have lost me,  any feelings of joy and love and connections even to the ones I "love". 

  I looked at the Utrogestan and Oestrogen forum but it is soo long I am not sure if i could have just messaged there?   I am quite a newbie in writing to the Menopause Matters Forum although i have spent many hours reading and hence not feeling so alone with it all.  So thank you for all the care and input.  It is much appreciated. 

I just don't know how much longer I can deal with unrelenting depression/anxiety  (over 8 years now psychiatrist  diagnosed me with "treatment resistant depression").  Antidepressant have helped me crawl out of the hole and see the light again but not lately and so I am not on anything apart from HRT and low dose Mirtazapine and Quetiapine to help me sleep.  However cannot even sleep enough anymore lately either and feel physically and mentally pretty wrecked.   .  Through years of mental suffering like this I even became addicted to tranquilizers and opiates at some point (which I am not taking now but very much miss - anything for a little respite). 

  I am just so wondering now if I should continue with the 6 squirts of Oestrogel.  How long would it take to know if it would make any difference to my mental state?   My daughter and boyfriend are coming for Christmas and New Year this week coming and I just do not want to be this severely depressed or ideally not depressed for a change.   Its gone on for far too long now.   I feel utterly drained and exhausted by it all.   This is my last email to Dr Parsons (I wrote today) and although he is not likely to reply (didn't reply last time), at least I have some sort of timeline what is going on....
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Letter to Dr Parsons:

Thanks for our appointment, caring and being prepared to experiment.  It has been about 2 weeks since increasing in Oestrogen (1 week 4 squirts) and approx. half a week leaving out Progesterone (Utrogestan) and increasing to 6 squirts of Oestrogen.  Unfortunately I have not had the slightest bit of relief in what is severe depression with currently a worsening of my state and daily unrelenting crying spells and suicidal thoughts.   I really wonder at the moment if the depression I am struggling with is actually hormone related?  I am utterly confused but do not know how to actually survive and get through any hour, day or weeks to come.   I know the election results and Christmas etc.  are not helping but no way would I suffer that deeply and severely with a more stable and better mental health regardless of any external circumstances.  I have always tried with meditation, exercise and helping myself to deal with my mental struggles but it has just become so overwhelmingly painful that I feel at crisis point every single day without exaggeration.   I just don't know how much longer I can keep hanging in there.   I am also not able to sleep enough anymore which probably contributes too. 

I will try to get an emergency appointment with GP tomorrow (Mon 16th Dec) to see if I can get any help with medication to at least get me through the Christmas period and visitors somehow?   I am just at my wits end and feel guilty for feeling like this.  I can promise you that I have always been very proactive in order to cope and help myself as best as I can but I am desperate for help and finding a way to change in how I feel.  I am grateful for the smallest improvement and window of possibility that I can actually live again rather than just exist and survive somehow.   I do not know what to do anymore.  I feel like giving up on HRT altogether but ultimately I need to find a way out of that hell that is depression.     

I really wish I could be a more straightforward patient.   

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Thanks for reading and appreciate any thoughts.   Sorry if it is a bit of a jumble mumble.  Feel I cannot even think straight anymore.   

 

[Wilks]

Hello :-)
I had utterly dreadful anxiety and depression a couple of years ago as I plunged further into peri-menopause. I was in a terrible state and ended up at A&E 3 times with mental health crises. I was on a low dose of HRT at the time and didn't realise that anxiety and depression could be associated with menopause.
In the end, what helped me was adding testosterone and an antidepressant to the HRT. I seem to need the full cocktail! Plus I got my energy back to do lots of outdoor exercise which helps massively.
I hope you get sorted soon xx

[Perinowpost]

Hi Michihope

Sorry you're feeling so bad. I'm no expert but 6 squirts of gel sounds like an awful lot.. I know if I've ever tried to increase my oestrogen I have experienced anxiety (I don't the rest of the time) and in fact have found that (for me) an average dose is best.  Less is more if you see what I mean. Did you feel any better when you went from 4 to 6 squirts?  Would you be able to cut down a bit and see if that brings you any relief (I realise it's difficult when you're feeling unwell)?

Re the progesterone I've always found we do need a little bit to counteract oestrogen spikes.  A little bit is necessary, (and in fact can be sedative) but not too much.  Too much I've always found can lead to depression and/or flat mood - this is something I've experienced myself, so I have to be very careful with prog.

I think what I'm trying to say to you is it's all about balance, and you're regime seems to be out of balance.

Don't know if any of that helps but I hope so.  And hopefully others will be along to help.

Wishing you well x

[CLKD]

Many don't do well with Progesterone.  Remember that your GP or Samaritans are on hand 24/7.  Don't worry about going to A&E, explain how you feel when you arrive and ask if you can sit quietly.  I needed somewhere safe to simply 'be' to stop me hurting myself.

Which symptom are you trying to ease first?  HORMONES     

Don't feel guilty.  It is The Change - does what it says on the tin!  Symptoms can cause havoc.  If you can't get an appt. tomorrow go to the Surgery and ask to sit there.  [as above].  You may find that a GP will fit you in.

Let us know how you get on.

[MichiHope]

Dear Wilks, Perinowpost and CLKD .  Thank you soooo much for your kind and considerate replies.  Really helps not to feel so alone with these struggles and gives me hope that there are options and ways forward!   It just feels so so endless when the Depression and Anxiety are so overwhelming that they "take your breath" and "life energy" away.... 

Yes  I may well need to experiment more and I always wondered about the Testosterone as well.   Dr Parsons says that it can also be part of the mix but we have not tried as yet.   I do feel that I am even more emotional and tearful with the 6 squirts of Oestrogen and even with 4.   And I really do not know if I am Progesterone intolerant (I think more irritable and want to bite my husbands head off on the Utrogestan  although everything feels like such a muddle puddle with just not knowing with whats what? as the Depression/Anxiety has been in my life now for soooo long with antidepressants not having helped much lately.  Although I do think I need to retry with them and also keep experimenting.   But I do need some help and support within the mental health team and with their massively overstretched and underfunded services that feels like near enough impossible.  And I have tried and tried ...... Bit traumatised by our lacking mental health  :cuss:services tbh.     Wonder if I end up having to see somebody privately and raid my savings! ? 

But I have to try and find a balance eventually and this is no mean feat I guess.   I think everybody on this forum has their story to tell!   Whoever invented  (swearword) menopause and depression/anxiety?!   Unfortunately life is just not fair!  I just think that i could do so much more good with my life if I had a more stable mental health.   

But I just wonder how i can find that balance with the Oestrogen and progesterone.  Can too much Oestrogen actually make depression worse?  So far it has not given me any relief or lift in mood I so crave.   And have read about a lot of women (incl women in media who talk about it), how an adequate amount of Oestrogen has turned their lives around and made it so much better.    It sounds so simple when what i am currently experiencing feels anything BUT simple! 

  Thanks for your input and putting things in perspective /offering hope  :)xx

[Wilks]

I firmly believe that HRT is helping me hugely, but as it's not totally risk free, I personally prefer to be on the lowest dose of oestradiol that controls my symptoms. I can tell when I'm on more than I need, as I get visual migraine auras. It is tricky getting the balance right, because if my oestrogen levels drop slightly, I get really sleepy and have painful joints.
After feeling mentally at rock bottom for about 2 years, though, fluoxetine has been a life saver.

[Perinowpost]

Also, just wanted to say don't add testosterone into the mix until you've got the everything else stabilised x

[MichiHope]

Hi to everyone who has been so kind to reply!  All much appreciated.  I do realise that i have to take it in steps with making changes.  Its just so not straightforward but hope i can figure out the puzzle eventually (with help).  I do feel that 6 pumps is a lot and i have felt more headachy and just really unwell - mentally and physically. 
But also felt pretty crap and depressed before i went up so high  with the oestrogen.   Maybe not cried as much.  But the reason why gyno has increased the oestrogen by so much is in the hope for me to feel better?!   Unfortunately i forgot to ask how long it would take until i know if it would be helpful or not?? 

 Also just not sure how much of a role progesterone etc. plays - He said to experiment with not taking it at all for 6 weeks to see if it makes a difference and if I am progesterone intolerant or not??? I just would like to feel like a "normalish" human being again.  Its been soooo long when i actually enjoyed some aspects of life.  At the moment just all flat, dark and grey in grey....   Christmas so close and people around feels like a big scary concept at the moment. 

Birdy - I am not on any benzodiazapines and haven t been for a while.  However desperate for a little respite and mental hell I am finding myself in.  Taking supplement concerning D vits and Vit B12.   Thyroid have been tested in past (while back now) and was ok then.  But maybe need to have another test.   Concerning antidepressants have been on loads (hence the great depressing diagnosis of "treatment resisting depression".  But i have to keep trying - as long as I find someone who is willing to work alongside me and believes in me and a way forward and beyond my mental health problems.   I just want to be able to live my life again (eventually!).  I guess patience is bitter but hopefully the fruits are sweet.   I know a bit corny but having to find the strength to somehow keep persevering  and not giving up.   Thanks to everyone xx

[sheila99]

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time. HRT can take some time to work so you really stay on any regime for more time. My anxiety and insomnia went (2 pumps in peri) but it took 3 months. 6 pumps is a very high dose and if you get headaches on it perhaps it is too high. Too much will give you side effects too and it isn't always easy work out if you have much or too little. I was told by the specialist I could go to up 4 pumps but haven't needed more than 3. It's also possible you don't absorb it well through your skin, if that's the case you might be better a different transdermal one or else oral.
   There are people who don't feel well on prog so trying without it is a good idea. But there are some people who seem to need a continual low dose. I know it's all very frustrating but finding the right combination for you can take some time. I found testosterone helped with low mood though mine wasn't as severe as yours. They say you should try any regime for 3 months  before you know if it's working.

[Jeepers]

Hi Michelle

I don't really have anything to add, just wanted to say how sorry I am to hear that  you are having such a terrible time right now. Hopefully you will find the right dose for you and your feelings of depression will start to ease.

Keep posting, the ladies on here are amazing ,

Jeepers xx

[MichiHope]

Hello everyone,  just a quick update.    Started spotting/bleeding (very dark blood currently) yesterday.   I am postmenopausal so apart from one bleed (when i wrote my first post on here), I have not had any bleeding for years....  On top of the emotional darkness currently going through i also feel really rough physically:  Shaky, nauseous, very weak, lightheaded,  waking up too early etc.    I feel like I am trapped on an emotional and physical crazy hormonal ride so I am really really wary to carry on with 6 pumps of Oestrogel (plus currently no Progesteron/Utrogestan).   Yesterday I reduced to 4 pumps but still feeling pretty rough.    I do no that on top of everything i am suffering long standing mental health issues but I am so confused as what is what? 

I have ring Dr Parsons Clinic today several times but only got answer phone and I left a message.   From past experiences he has not ever responded to any of my emails and only once got hold of him on the phone. I really struggle though to ring someone up and ask for advice.  I feel like i am being a nuisance.     I really do not want to be this difficult patient but I really have not chosen this and would do anything to find a way back to some kind of a life.   I think Christmas coming up and not wanting to be constantly depressed and in a physical state when my daughter and boyfriend will come back from Uni and stay over 2 weeks is not helping either. 

Should I keep ringing Dr Parsons and asking what to do next?   I am so confused about my life right now and it feels so difficult having to push myself for the smallest thing..      Warmest wishes to everyone Michaela xx

[sheila99]

I'm out of my depth on this one but if it was me I would reduce to 2/3 pumps if you can't get hold of him. It sounds to me that you have too much oestrogen. I've found too much to be nearly as bad too little and I've only been up to 3.5 pumps.

[MichiHope]

Hi thanks for the advice, but i have only been on 6 pumps for 4 days or so as it was only last week Wed when i got to see Dr Parsons and when he said to try 6 pumps and stop the utrogestan for 6 weeks until my next appointment in January. Before Wed (11 th Dec) i was on 4 pumps for about a week (as advised by him over the phone and because of no improvement in my mood) and before that 2 pumps and daily oral Utrogestan since beg of Oct 2019 after my first appointment with him.

Before that i was on tibolone for years. Unfortunately it didn't help my nonexistent libido and depression either but at least it helped with the hot flushes.  I just don't know anymore.  Feel out of my depth and just feel like giving up...

I reduced to 4 squirts yesterday.  I do feel that 6 are just too much??  I just need some hope in my life again that things can get better as i am just not living anymore.  Losing it.  Xx

[sheila99]

You may need testosterone for libido. Mine was zero too, oestrogen made no difference though it seems to for some ladies. I think you need a long term view for hrt as it does take time to make a difference, they suggest staying on any new regime for 3 months. Some people need an AD along with hrt.

[pants46]

When I withdraw from utrogestan i'm Ok at first but by the time comes for me to use oestrogel again I am so depressed and anxious I don't leave my bed.

Birdy, what do you mean ... to use oestrogel again ... you use that every day, surely ?