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[Machair]

ER that is brilliant. Thank you. What a great way of showing your cycles, I think I will do that with mine too! Prior to 2014 were your periods less frequent, or did you have any long gaps then, or all the mucus associated with the oestrogen surges? I would say my chaos has been for about 2 or 3 years with the cycles pretty regular before then, and certainly none of the copious mucus or oestrogen surges I am having now.I wonder if in some women these surges reach their peak just before the end, rather like the ovary's last attempt. I hope so!

Sparkle what a great meal - maybe that is the way to go forward. Just one thing to mention is that having ME I have IBS really badly in flares. When it is flaring I can't manage greenery at all, which is hard as it is my favourite as being vegetarian I eat a lot of salad and veg. However a few years back my daughter was on a vegan diet, and we went away together. I decided to try to eat her meals which were raw veg based. I was in agony for days and my gut was in a right mess.

[Elizabethrose]

Without a shadow of a doubt, things have changed in the past 3 years. Before, I would say my cycle mode was about 21 days but they could be anything between 9 days and 48, with every variation in between. Some of my longer cycles were broken down into surges like the ones you can see in 2015. Docs felt that these longer cycles could have been a combination of anovulatory cycles without anovulatory bleeds BUT impossible to prove, as the fertility monitor couldn't cope with what was happening and whilst I had bloods done regularly, it wasn't daily. Whilst I've always been able to tell a pattern with my mucus, the massive oestrogen surges over the past 4 years have created copious cerv muc, much increased from my previous norm.

There is a fine line between late stage premenopause and early peri, with symptoms much more subtle in some women than others. I'd say there was a distinct change into peri when I hit about 40/41 but the sudden development of pure menstrual migraine was the thing that drove me to the Docs at 41-42. There was a wonderful GP in my practice in those days who recognised what was happening to me as her mother had reacted in exactly the same way. In the early years the cycle mode became 21 but could be as long as 39 with only very very occasional anovulatory cycles. What was different for me from most women was that I didn't progress through the peri stages into meno. I was caught for many years experiencing each stage of peri at length! I read that peri has been known to stop and start but my symptoms were a constant and have been for 16 years.

What I discovered, and I think we've discussed this before, was that things seemed to run in cycles: I may have a run of short violent cycles with murderous migs then all would calm with longer cycles. Generally a long cycle was followed by a nightmare short one and vice versa. Either way the short cycles were always the worst to deal with. I would get a massive oestrogen surge on about day 2,3 or 4, often when I was still bleeding, and be feeling much like you are at the moment. It could crash at any time and in the early years would normally result in a bleed. I think my shortest rogue cycle was 7 days, obviously anovulatory.

I was discussing this with a specialist recently who agreed that in a 'normal' person I'd be considered menopausal now but of course I'm not normal as these surges make me build a lining and bleed despite not ovulating, regularly. He said that some women have powerful reproductive systems that will keep them going for longer, they don't know why it happens, I suppose because statistically there are so few of us that nobody has bothered to study it. Of course, the study of menopause has been totally neglected anyway until recent years.

It could be that you are doing exactly the same now, alternating ovulatory cycles with anovulatory cycles, certainly your symptoms echo mine exactly. Though I would say, I have always bled properly, maybe only once or twice over many years have I only produced a browny, pinkish discharge like you and Sparkle.

I do feel that my ovaries have produced their finale fireworks over the past 18 months and though I know I've said it before, I feel as if I may now be through. Watch this space!! I reckon you are very hot on my heels! xx

[Machair]

Brilliant ER  what a wonderful source of help and inspiration you are.

Well here are my last 3 years in a nutshell!
2016 34A- 226A ( 6 surges) -66A, 26A, 53A (2 surges)
2015 171A,49A, 35A,38A, 28A, 33A, 67A, 34A
2014 242, 44, 26,35, 29

Prior to this I was pretty regular although in 2013 I did have several short cycles alternating with long ones so I think this was when things kicked off, as prior to that I was completely regular. I have never had the mucus surging until the cycles went haywire in 2014. I have also had a couple of episodes of pink discharge at a peak of oestrogen that I haven't charted, but I remember you had this in April last year so I think it may be similar to what you had, and I think Sparkle also had this too at some point last year. I had hoped that might signal the end as I know this happened to my hairdresser- she had one pink spot as if a period wanted to start and then nothing. If only things were so simple!

I would also say that I am guessing some cycles were anovulatory simply because of the mucus pattern, and the return of the stretchy mucus after what felt like ovulation I know this means most likely it didn't happen.

[Elizabethrose]

Machair, are you saying you haven't ovulated since 2014?

Your peri fits a regular length of time (not a freak like me!) You're absolutely right, on the 30th April I had the faintest pinky smear once when I wiped. It was day 135 in that long cycle and it clearly marked a massive oestrogen fall as I changed from copious cerv muc to hot flushes on the 2nd May.

[Machair]

I don't think I have no as the mucus pattern was very obvious, but I must admit it is only this year that I have really paid attention to it, so I could have ovulated in 2015 possibly in one of the short cycles. I am sure not last year though!

[nearly50]

That is all very interesting. Have to agree with Machair, your posts are really informative. I haven't ever looked in detail at the actual numbers before. No wonder I was anemic last year!

Think I've still got a way to go when I look at these numbers. No idea when I've ovulated and when I haven't but don't think I have for the past 2 or 3 cycles.

2016: 11,57,21,14,30,19,23,12,26,25,22,85
2015: 23,29,22,33,15,16,25,23,25,26,24,27,26,16,25

[Machair]

That is really interesting nearly 50 so sometimes you were bleeding every two weeks. That must have been shattering! Maybe your long gap now is a sign you are progressing though!

[nearly50]

Periods lasting 10 days so only got 1 or 2 days gap in January and July.  Interesting for me to look at as my symptoms were at their worst at this point - had to take a month off work in June.

Hoping for some more long gaps Machair!

[Elizabethrose]

Machair, I found in some of the very long cycles, when there were multiple surges, that I ovulated after the last one. Clearly the FSH, after multiple attempts, was able to find a viable follicle. It is difficult identifying the stops and starts of the cervical mucus i.e. we don't expect it to start so soon after a bleed commences. It is that the oestrogen levels are no longer building gradually, they surge instead. Thus the cerv muc is created earlier than would be expected at mid cycle. This can confuse us into thinking that the mucus didn't stop at a bleed but carried through it, which is what I suggested to you with your Christmas and New Year bleeds. Could it be that you ovulated at Christmas, thus the light loss: then you bled 15 days or so later in the New Year BUT the oestrogen surged quickly and cerv muc built early?  Do you understand what I'm saying, it's difficult putting it down in words. Daily records are necessary here to really identify what is going on. Sometimes just a few days gap in the cer muc indicates a different path.

Either way, if the vast majority of your cycles are anovulatory, things must clearly be coming to an end. This will be indicated by your very light flow now: the follicles are not releasing enough to stimulate endometrial build up. Our bodies seem to act differently in this way.

Ovulation is less likely with the very short cycles, for me these have been anovulatory surges, thus the hormonal chaos they cause. x

nearly50, your very short cycles, 11, 14, 12, 15 etc were very likely anovulatory and they are interspersed across the two years though prominent in the last. It could be that these cycles are just massive oestrogen surges as I previously described, thus the massive endometrial build up. Are you able to recognise your cerv muc changes? Some women can't as it's just not so obvious to them. You had 2 very long cycles last year which is a good sign that you're well on the way. However, as you know, it's impossible to stage it, you could stop tomorrow or go on for years. A very small percentage of women just stop very suddenly and a small percentage carry on like me like this for years.

By the way, thanks for posting that great link, I'd forgotten about it, it's really relevant to late menopausers who are trying to seek reassurance when their experience doesn't fit the norm. x

[nearly50]

I re-read that article quite often just to remind myself it will come to an end!

I do have notes about possible ovulation at home, I think I can track that my luteal phase decreased from 14 days to 10 days early last year. Makes sense that I wouldn't ovulate during the shorter cycles and an oestrogen surge makes sense too as I felt awful.

All very interesting, thanks very much Elizabethrose

edit: The last two periods have been odd, last one lasted 14 days with the last 8 days or so being brown spotting. This one's the same but now on day 14 I'm getting some bright red blood again - aagh.

[Elizabethrose]

I'm out now nearly50 so can't check but my luteal phase suddenly reduced to 10 days, maybe about 6-7 years ago. A while later it crept up to about 13 days again and remained a constant thereafter. It's supposed to be fairly stable and it's the follicular phase that changes but I wonder whether that too is a peri progression symptom. I've never asked that question! x

[dahliagirl]

I have been looking at my old charts    I did it help predict cyclical constipation after my op, and out of interest - I had had 4 years of symptoms on the combined pill and my grandmothers had last periods at 50 and 51, so was convinced it would be a 6 month thing.  (This ran from age 49 - 50 1/2 )

They go:

2013: 
88 days (after stopping POP, taken for 12 weeks after stopping COC  - incl rectocele repair op)
22?  46A , 23?, 26?, 20A (withdrawal after 1 week on POP), 31 A, 9A, (trying another pill 3 days - 7 day withdrawal bleed),then 15A, 25A, 28A, 24A, 12A, 12A,

2014:
27?, 33A (with three small bleeds) 31A, 27 (with cervical mucus and slow temperature rise from day 17!)

The first three non-anovulatory times - there was cervical mucus merged into period and a very pitiful slow temperature rise which was only noticeable in hindsight, when it dropped when my period started.  The rest of the time, the temperature line was very zig-zaggy and there was no cervical mucus.  My original charts have breast changes too - these were up and down but not very significant.

Then the last one was the nearest thing to an identifiable cycle.

I read the STRAW thing, and the only thing that fitted was 'Late Reproductive'.

[Elizabethrose]

Haha dahlia girl, the only thing I matched on the Straw was the fact that I was a woman!

I'm confused, let me ask, is the question mark an ovulatory cycle? Are you saying that the first ever 3 anovulatory cycles or ovulatory cycles had stretchy egg white type mucus as a constant from mid cycle to the bleed?

[dahliagirl]

The ones marked A are definitely anovulatory
The ones marked ? are where there was some cervical mucus, but it wasn't backed up with any change in temperature.

When I said the first 3, I should have said the first three 's (because one of the first 3 is A). 

After much reading, I came to the conclusion that the pattern they came up with fitted a minority of the women in the study, but the rest of the women were so varied that it was the best they could come up with.  I also read that the end of the road was in sight if you had had a cycle of about 60 days or longer.

With that in mind, I concluded that I still had several years to go and since I had other problems, asked for HRT.

[Elizabethrose]

No matter how much analysis is done, and mine was managed by specialists trying to manage my migraine, I think it's impossible to predict when a woman will hit meno. I was apparently supposed to have hit it about 6 years ago. The trouble is, when women are trying to manage troublesome conditions often associated with hormone fluctuations, it does help to be able to see a pattern, understand what is happening. I truly never found Straw even remotely helpful. An Australian or Kiwi study I was given, formulated conclusions that certainly didn't match the ones I'd made when reading it. Nobody ever seems to want to confirm that oestrogen levels in peri for some women are through the roof; the common conclusion is that oestrogen diminishes through peri, DUH, not always!!

Even the 60 days without a bleed rule differs greatly between the different studies. Also it doesn't appear to be taken into consideration that for some women 60 days can be the equivalent of 3 cycles not 2. My cycle mode was 20 for years, interspersed between every other variation.
I fit the criteria suggested for imminent meno about 7-8 years ago, that's why my pals were laughing! x