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[mazzy]

Hi everyone.

I am wondering if anyone has the same problem as me and how you have coped with it.

For some time now I have had sleep problems.  I have no problem going to sleep, its staying asleep.  it doesn't matter what time I go to bed early or late, I wake up every 2hrs and in the morning I am more tired than when I went to bed.

My GP wasn't very sympathetic at first and just suggested a milky drink and a relaxing bath before bed but it didn't work so after a while he gave me some B6 to take for a few weeks but that didn't work either.

A few weeks ago he gave me Circadin (Melatonin) and I really thought that it may work but all it did was make me feel more tired the following day especially the afternoon when I could have fell asleep.
I have also tried over the counter remedies.
+
I cant understand why I wake up.  My bedroom is the right temperature neither too hot or too cold.  I don't suffer from night sweats, K doesn't snore either.  I try to switch off for an hour before bedtime but nothing seems to work.

I am getting desperate now, as in the day I feel really drained and finding it hard to function.  I worry about driving too

Any suggestions about what to do next?


Mazzy 

[Rowan]

What time did you take the melatonin mazzy, its best to take it about eight or nine o'clock in the evening as it is prolonged release and 2mgs which is a high dosage. Your own natural melatonin starts to rise about that time. Make sure you keep the lights low and don't use computer or tablet later in the evening. Ideal time to sleep is 10 0clock pm when your cortisol levels start to lower, melatonin helps to lower cortisol.

I use melatonin but only 1mg or under, I have the type that is chewable and I can bite a tiny bit of the tablet and it does the trick, I can even dissolve it in a milky drink.

Hormone levels lowering can cause sleep problems, I find estrogen alone is not much help as it excites the brain, but can help with hot flush surges that can interfere with sleep,  natural progesterone cream can calm, if you don't want to take HRT.

There are many books on insomnia if you google.

I listen to a calming audio book, then turn on a CD of falling rain that lasts an hour. If I wake up in the night I turn it on again.

[Dancinggirl]

I'm up at least twice a night to have a pee - been like this since I had my babies over 24 years ago.  I often find I can't get back to sleep and do end up feeling very tired. 
I'm not a great believer in herbal remedies since spending a fortune on them when I had terrible meno flushes etc. - none of it helped, what a waste of money!  However, I do find the herbal sleep remedies that contain hops, passion and valerian seem to make me more relaxed.  If I want to get a really good nights sleep then I take the Nytol with Diphenhydramine which is over the counter medicine and seems to break the cycle of terrible wakefulness.
I think sleep issues are pretty common with meno women.  DG x

[Rowan]

Melatonin is not a Herbal remedy but a hormone that the body makes.

Sorry if I have misunderstood you DG.

Food combination to help you sleep

http://www.better-sleep-better-life.com/sleep-inducing-foods.html

[Dancinggirl]

Hi silverlady - Sorry if I've confused things - I think we are talking at cross purposes - I should have directed it to Mazzy - I was just speaking about my own experience with stuff to help me sleep - I've never tried Melatonin - maybe I should try it - I will discuss next time I see my PN or GP.

[mazzy]

Hi Silverlady

I took my Melatonin at about 8.30pm and went to bed between 10.30 and 11.00pm but it made no difference night after night.  I found that I just felt more and more tired the following day. As I help care for my Mom its important for me to drive and I was really concerned about driving, as I was having to use the cold air blower to keep me alert.  I don't know if that was the Melatonin doing that or if I was just suffering from lack of sleep.  My GP has already done my bloods to rule out other things and the results were fine. I even watch what I eat and drink now.


Dancinggirl, I have also tried various over the counter remedies such as Nytol but it had no effect.  I have even thought of trying to stay awake for 24 hrs to see if that would reset my sleep pattern but my friend thinks that that will make things worse as I will become over tired.

From what I have read this is another problem of the Menopause but does it get any better, as I feel I cant go on like this for much longer. I am constantly tired and getting ratty with everyone even the poor cats are avoiding me now.

Looks like it will be back to the GP.


Mazzy x

[Rowan]

mazzy too much melatonin will give you a hangover type feeling the next day and you were prescribes a slow release type. Also it was probably too much for you, as it is suggested that .03 mgs is enough to start with. My OH takes the drops under the tongue which works for him but you won't get them on prescription.

I have found that you can get into a vicious  cycle, the more you don't sleep the more het up and worried you get about not sleeping, sleeping is letting go and that can be quite hard to put into practice.

If you are not on HRT your doctor might suggest this or even a short course of zopiclone.

Really hope you can get this sorted out.

[mamakaren]

Sometimes I think lack of sleep is the worst part of menopause! As woman we are on the go all day and when we lay down to rest, it's hard to slow that down! I haven't found anything that works for me completely. I also have bladder issues since my hysterectomy and need to get up every couple hours. Melatonin didn't work for me either. I always used to drink a cup of peppermint tea before bed but that just makes me have to get up more. I have found that I get a little more sleep on the days when I have gotten some exercise in.

Here's hoping we all get a good night sleep soon! 

Karen

[honeybun]

My sleeping pattern was terrible pre HRT. Even now I go through stages of not being able to fall asleep. This is probably due to to many stresses in my life.
I listen to a wave app when trying to get to sleep which sometimes helps. I also find if I cuddle into hubbies back and try and match my breathing to his (he is already asleep ) then that helps relax me and I drop off.

Sleep deprivation is terrible. I would agree to speak to your doctor as this affects so many aspects of your daily life. Good sleep helps you have a healthy immune system which is very important.

Honeyb
x

[Hurdity]

Hi mazzy

I presume you've tried all the standard recommnedations re getting a good night's sleep?

As well as sliverlady's suggestions of calming music and low lights etc, have you cut out or cut down caffeine (tea, coffee, choc, cola) especially from say mid-afternoon? Also alcohol in the evening can promote sleep initially but cause you to wake in the night. I've also just read that high sugar can also be detrimental.

Do you have plenty of exercise during the day ie are you active? This should also help you sleep as long as it is not just before bed.

Also food additives - is your diet healthy with food prepared from fresh ingredients?

Perhaps you are worried or anxious - especially with the stress of looking after your mum? All of these things can contribute to lack of sleep.

When this happens to me I use an adaptation of the 3-2-1 anxiety exercise posted by a member - which is now a sticky. I posted on there how I used it for sleep - it does seem to work if I make sure I empty my mind of whatever is racing through it - in fact it helps do this too!! The exercise is at the beginning of the thread but where I adapted it is a few pages back -
http://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8454.30.html

Hope this helps

Hurdity x

[mazzy]

Thanks for your replies. Silverlady I think you may be right about the doseage because I  felt like a zombie the next day, found it very hard to function.

I am looking at all aspects of my diet. I all ready drink decaffeinated tea and coffee.  Have decided to keep a food diary to see if that throws anything up. My Sister suggested drinking herbal teas and said that she has heard of something called Melissa Dream tablets that are good to help you sleep through the night.

Will give anything a go.

Mazzy x

[Christine]

Try celery at teatime...works for me.

[Dana]

Hi Mazzy

You are describing exactly what my sleep pattern was like pre meno and pre HRT. I would literally wake every 2 hours, on the dot, needing to go to the loo. Back in those days I never had any problem going back to sleep though, but it was still very frustrating.

I complained about it to my doctor and she sent me for an ultrasound (the most uncomfortable thing I've ever experienced because you have to have a completely full bladder), but it showed nothing. I realise now it was just all part of the peri-meno fun. When my sleep totally went to hell back in 2010, and I started taking my first lot of HRT, the problem miraculously disappeared. So it was all obviously hormonal.

IMO, I agree that herbal remedies are a waste of money. I have never found any to be helpful. Just be a bit careful about melatonin. It isn't a miracle cure for insomnia. It's a hormone that prepares your body for sleep, but won't actually put you to sleep. You also need to be careful about how much you take. More is not better. The recommended dose is no more than 1mg. Taking more than this can produce next day grogginess, headaches, depression, nausea etc.

Considering that we only naturally produce just a small amount of melatonin (I think I've read that it's less than 50mcg, but I could be wrong) it's not surprising that a lot of the commercial melatonin products, that routinely contain more than 3mg, could cause problems.

There are certain foods that contain natural melatonin, like sour cherries and sour cherry juice concentrate, so that could be an alternative you could try.

If you want to try an over the counter med, I have found a med called doxylamine (it's an antihistamine) to be very good. It is sold under a variety of brand names and I have found it very effective at low doses. I also post on another forum, where a lot of people experience sleep problems as a side effect, and a lot of them use this med with a lot of success.

Something else you could try, which some people on this same site find helps, is Magnesium Glycinate (glycinate is better absorbed than other types of magnesium).

Ultimately though, if your problem is the same as mine was, maybe you next course of action is to consider natural HRT.

Whatever you do though, don't allow your doctor to prescribe any kind of benzo or Z-drug to help with your sleep. Trust me, this is a very slippery slope to embark on, and it will only lead to further, and much worse, problems in the future.

[Rowan]

I would be careful with doxylamine it is a potent anticholinergic and has a side-effect profile common to such drugs, including dry mouth, ataxia, urinary retention, drowsiness, memory problems, inability to concentrate, hallucinations, psychosis, and a marked increased sensitivity to external stimuli though it is not addictive.

I would be cautious using it on a regular basis if you suffer from VA as it could dry out the mucous membranes as well as giving you a dry mouth. I have tried it and did not like the dry mouth feeling, but as always others will tolerate it.

I have used zopiclone one in a while and have not been addicted to it, I never use the full dose and cut the tablet into quarters or even less, it still works, sometimes I think that the dose I take is so low that it must be a psychological dose, but sleep is a mystery and getting it mostly does start in the mind unless others things are going on e.g. menopause symptoms. These days GPs will only offer one low dose  course and are very mindful of the dangers of repeated prescriptions. Not sleeping is torture and the longer it goes on the harder it is to treat, sometimes help is needed even if it is inly a few times a week.

As Dana says magnesium is another option, I Natural CALM that is a powder that can be mixed in a drink, it is also good for heart palpitations if they keep you awake.

Have you considered sleep apnoea that's another thing that can happen to women during menopause it is a bit drastic to consider but here is a lot of research on women in menopause and sleep apnoea http://voices.yahoo.com/exhausted-menopause-sleep-6454498.html?cat=5 I know I have had some of the symptoms listed.

I hope you find an answers in all that the ladies have suggested mazzy.

[mazzy]

Thanks everyone for all of your suggestions. Dana, I have thought for a few weeks now that it is all to do with the Menopause.

I cannot go on HRT due to BP problems and I certainly don't want to go on to sleeping pills.  Going to do some research on Google to see if I can find anything useful.

thanks

mazzy x