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[chopsuey]

I think most of us on here are finding that it is not just the dosing errors but the actual gel itself is less potent or not being absorbed in the same way. Some people on here are taking very high doses and still getting low blood levels and lots of symptoms.

The new pumps are very erratic and it is impossible to say how much extra you would need because it varies each time how much you get. The only way to get an accurate dose is to weigh each one on digital jewellery scales, which you can get on Amazon for around £10-£15. But I think you will find that even then, you will still have symptoms, unfortunately.

[RebJT]

Hi all

Yes to concur, I've been on 7 pumps and getting blood results of 190 pmol which are drastically down on where they were, and still going down with every dose increase.  My sleep is disturbed, I can see skin changes, and I'm getting vaginal soreness.  No harm in increasing, but most of us, having tried that, are getting off oestrogel. 

On that theme, the insert to estradot say if you are on sequi - which I am - start of day 1 of cycle.  Given that's a week and half away, I thought I'd try sandrena again in the meantime.  I just feel unbelievably jittery but also had a whopping hot flush yesterday evening (I've never had a hot flush as I was on HRT before those symptoms started) so this doesn't bode well.  I took 1.5mg this morning with the idea of taking 1mg this evening, but I can't face it, I'll never sleep.  They day's been a right off, feel like I'm on speed, it's a really harsh chemically feeling, particularly in and around my eyes.

I'm so upset about oestrogel, I'd got my life back and now have to go through this crap all over again!

Reb
x

[chopsuey]

That's really disappointing Reb. I think many of us on here are kind of banking on Sandrena to be our salvation but it seems some people, such as yourself respond really badly to it. Hope you have better results with the Estradot. Just worry I will be allergic to the glue, like I was with Evorel

I had a weird reaction to Oestrogel this morning. I felt a bit jittery an hour or so after applying and then really dizzy to the point I had to sit down for a while. I used to get very slight jittery episodes on the old stuff but it was very transient, lasting about 15 mins.

Had my bloods taken today, so will update when I get them.

[RebJT]

Thanks

I suspect I really absorb this, as it starts within seconds of applying it.  I also suspect I need way less than the 'conversion' from my good dose of 4.5 pumps of old oestrogel, as Banjo has said, but given my workload the thought of plunging my levels further is too frightening (I get TERRIBLE brain fog and have a very academic job) so I'm probably not being very logical and should start on a way lower dose, I just can't make myself do it!  We will see.

On the upside, it's triggered a massive bleed, so think I'm OK to start estradot, just going to wait for these jitters to pass, so I can track any reaction.  My sis in law was also allergic to evorel but not to estradot (me being me I have oestrogel, sandrena, estradot, and evorel in a box under my bed, after the NHS ruining my life by utterly bodging my life threatening thyroid disease, I like to be in control of my hormone options! lol)

Yes do post your results, that will be very interesting to see.  I see Louise Newsom has posted about 'nothing to worry about, two faulty batches' - we know it's more than that.

Reb
x

[MrsMitch]

Thank you ladies. I'm so sorry to hear you're all suffering too. It really annoys me when a tried and tested product gets changed.
So it sounds as though I'm going to have to go back to my  GP with this one and your comments make it clear that I'm likely not just lacking in 1 pump but probably much more.
Do you have any idea what I should be asking my GP for? The whole practice is pretty useless but I've recently had success by telling the GP how much estradiol I need. I'm postmeno and taking Utrogestone x2 at night. I've tried patches in the past and they were hopeless. Initially I was prescribed a tablet which I cannot remember what it was. But although it worked there was apparently a shortage and I couldn't get it again. Are Sandrena and Estradot my options?

[RebJT]

Hiya

Bless you, yes it's infuriating.  Well of course your first option is just to try more gel, I'd still do one pump increments and wait and see how you go, then do another, but perhaps getting blessing from doc to do that first, and so you have the script with enough wriggle room to do it - you might get hamstrung by NICE guidelines which is max four pumps.

Most women in this predicament have done wonderfully on Sandrena and many prefer it.  The 'conversion' the NHS use isn't by oestrogen dose though, just 'roughly equivalent' - so they say x pumps of oestrogel is roughly equivalent to y of sandrena.  Again getting enough so you can fiddle yourself to find your sweet spot. 

Estradot comes in 25, 50, 75 and 100 - equiv to 1, 2, 3 and 4 pumps, you can however cut the patch if you need to, or ask your GP to prescribe you several size patches (so say if you are on 100, ask for 50s and 25s so you can adjust the dose maybe?  That's what my gynae did when she trial prescribed me evorel, told me to start on 75, moving up to 100).

x

[chopsuey]

Thanks

I suspect I really absorb this, as it starts within seconds of applying it.  I also suspect I need way less than the 'conversion' from my good dose of 4.5 pumps of old oestrogel, as Banjo has said, but given my workload the thought of plunging my levels further is too frightening (I get TERRIBLE brain fog and have a very academic job) so I'm probably not being very logical and should start on a way lower dose, I just can't make myself do it!  We will see.

On the upside, it's triggered a massive bleed, so think I'm OK to start estradot, just going to wait for these jitters to pass, so I can track any reaction.  My sis in law was also allergic to evorel but not to estradot (me being me I have oestrogel, sandrena, estradot, and evorel in a box under my bed, after the NHS ruining my life by utterly bodging my life threatening thyroid disease, I like to be in control of my hormone options! lol)

Yes do post your results, that will be very interesting to see.  I see Louise Newsom has posted about 'nothing to worry about, two faulty batches' - we know it's more than that.

Reb
x

It does sound like you are absorbing too much and too rapidly. I believe you can get flushes and menopausal symptoms from too much oestrogen. So hard to know what to do for the best, as patches will work in a gradual release way, very different from gel. I was only ever on 25mg patch, so don't know in principle whether they would work for me, as that was way too low a dose and the effects of the Utro just made me feel worse than not being on HRT.  Brain fog is just the most debilitating thing isn't it, especially when you have a demanding job?

If the Estradot doesn't work for you, perhaps you could try a combination of maybe a patch to give you a baseline level and a top up of a lower amount of Sandrena. Good that you've got a good stash in order to experiment a bit but so unfair that we all have to mess around like this, putting our lives on hold, trying to work out what to do for the best.

Disappointing reaction from Louise Newson ( not seen it myself) You would think from all her patients and followers, she would be more aware of the issues and know it's not just a batch issue

[MrsMitch]

Thank you, Reb.  I didn't realise Estradoy were patches - I had another type of patch before and aside from them continually falling off, I got a raised itchy rash in the shape of the patch every time!
I've been a bit slap dash with dosage this week and certainly using more than usual and last night I had a really good night's sleep. Whether it is that or the fact I've been using estradiol every day since last week, it could be the urge to pee isn't quite as urgent and not waking me. I'm grateful for your comments,  I'll monitor things and see how it goes.

[chopsuey]

Well, I've just got my blood test results. A bit of a surprise I have to say.

So, previously when I was on 4 pumps of old Oestrogel, my oestradiol levels were 466 pmol/L. This was, however, fairly early on in my HRT, when I was trying to get my levels up from unrecordable, so I don't know if they subsequently went higher.

This time, (different lab but taken at similar time of day and I did have my dose of Oestrogel 4 hours earlier, as before) on 4 pumps of the new stuff, my level is 602 pmol/L. My total testosterone is somewhat raised though at 1.85 nmol/L. (My FAI and SHBG are in normal range). I'm sure I read somewhere that testosterone can be converted to oestradiol but can't find the reference now. If so, I wonder whether the Androfeme has pushed up my oestradiol.

Symptom wise, since spreading the gel over the smaller area, I don't feel too bad currently. Headache and joint aches have gone and I've got plenty of energy. The main difference compared to taking the old stuff is the return of the sludgy brain function/memory issues and my skin is still drier than it was. Maybe these will improve with time.

So, all in all, I'm a bit puzzled. I am 4 years post meno, so the E levels are all due to Oestrogel (possibly aided by testosterone). I am clearly taking enough and it does seem to be working for me now I've changed technique. My next step will to be to get a scan to ensure my endometrium lining isn't building up too much, as my current bleed has been going on for 10 days and I do take a low dose of Utro vaginally.

[Scampidoodle]

Testosterone can definitely convert to oestrogen via aromatisation. And for some this occurs at a higher rate than others, it’s very individual.

[RebJT]

Hi Chopsuey

Wow that's great, so glad you are feeling better.  I take T but it doesn't seem to have had any bearing on my E levels although I'm debating switching to blood draw in the afternoon and applying gel in the morning, as I do wonder how much is in my system after nearly 24 since last application.  Like you I'm also spreading over a smaller area.  I do in fact feel better for the increased dose, I don't look great, and feeling tired, but no meno symptoms like sweats, aches, vaginal soreness etc.

I've not tested my T for a while and I think my SHBG is high (it always used to be as I'm TSH suppressed for thyroid cancer, which pushes up SHBG) - keep meaning to ask my gynae about this, as wondering if this has some bearing on how I utilise HRT.

I'll book some tests.

My patch experiment is going to have to wait a cycle as my sandrena experiment triggered a massive early bleed, and given I'd just not long had another early massive bleed from increasing oestrogel dose, I think I've dipped my iron levels (also have long term iron deficiency issues which are a total pain) so Im jittery and not myself, so don't think now is the moment to add another variable into the mix (or to trigger yet another bleed and lose yet more iron) as it'll be hard to track which symptoms belong where.

I'm now applying one pump per small area - one forearm, one upper arm, left haunch, right haunch, spreading not rubbing and leaving to dry etc so will see how that goes.  Pump sizes are defo erratic though, by sight and by the scales.  At the rate I'm now using it I'm due to order a repeat, so be interesting to see if the new batch is any different to the current stuff Im slapping on in alarming quantities.

What a total faff this all is!  Really very fed up indeed!

Reb
x

[chopsuey]

Hi Reb

Very difficult for you with so many variables going on. I have read that SHBG also affects levels of available oestradiol, so if your levels are high, it could be another factor.

I am still quite stunned by my results and querying how valid they are, especially as there was a post on another thread, citing a study about transdermal gel application and contaminated venous samples affecting blood levels of oestradiol. I think I may need to retest and avoid applying to my arms and use a plastic glove to apply it on the day of the draw. I have to do the test in the morning in order to get it off in the post though and like you, think 24 hrs since last dose will also distort the results. I may have to switch to an evenng application for a few days. Don't know if there is any guidance on this. Newson Health just says apply it as normal but avoid the arms.

I'm sure there are lots of people on here who would be delighted to have levels of E over 600 but I think I'd like to run a bit lower with my P regime and being post meno, provided my symptoms are well controlled.

I hope you manage to find some answers with all your issues. To think I once assumed HRT would be straightforward!!

 x

[boomerang]

Wow this thread is enlightening! So sorry to all of you having such a hard time with this …

I’m on my third bottle of Oestrodose (covered in paper Oestrogel labels!) after much trialling of site of application, thickness of application and dose I am feeling good with 1 pump on my thigh. I started off on 2, but after symptoms returning after 6 weeks and thanks to this super helpful forum that taught me too high and too low oestrogen levels can cause the same symptoms (I mean come on as if this isn’t hard enough to get your head round!) I reduced to 1 pump and that’s working well right now.

Today I collected my new prescription which is 3 bottles of Oestrogel- totally different bottle and packaging.
Feeling a little apprehensive to start but thanks to all this info I can go into it aware and monitor closely how I’m feeling. Thank you all for sharing your experiences.

[chopsuey]

Hi boomerang

This forum is indeed very helpful and a wealth of knowledge and experience. So glad I found it.

Don't know how much of this very long thread you have read through but I suspect Oestrodose and the new shape Oestrogel are the same product, just in different bottles. If you have now been given the new white cap cylindrical pumps, just be mindful that you will probably get less and varying amounts from these, as they are very unreliable, particularly as you get towards the end of the bottle.

[boomerang]

Hi Chopsuey

Thank you! That’s good to know that hopefully I’ve got the same formulation… I have some digital scales so I shall keep an eye on the weight of the gel coming out like you suggested especially nearing the end of the bottle.

Nothings ever straightforward is it!