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[Hurdity]

Hi all,

Long time no post as I’ve been trying to get into a good rhythm with progesterone lozenges & oestrogel. I basically can’t seem to tolerate the lozenges every day (they put me in a coma after taking it a few days in a row). Ive tried taking it every other day & this works for a while but then it all,gets too much & I crash like ive done now.  I’m taking 2 pumps of oestrogel on the mornings when I haven’t had progesterone the night before & then 3 pumps when I’ve taken progesterone the night before. I’m wondering if you can take lozenges as a sequi regime I.e. 7-12 days lozenges and then stop until the next month. I didn’t take the progesterone lozenge last night and thinking about not taking it again for a while to see if it’s the cause of my symptoms.

I’m wondering if sequi might suit me better so does anyone know if you can use lozenges in this way.

I’m feeling exhausted, depressed, headaches and fed up of feeling ill & struggling to get much quaility of life.

Hi Blue Kingfisher

I'm sorry to hear that you've been having problems with progesterone. I don't know your story and whether you are being closely monitored by a private clinic? I also know nothing about the lozenges - except to re-iterate as I've said many times, that because these products are not regulated, there is no standard dose which is needed in order to protect the endometrium.

If you are taking 2 pumps of oestrogel and are post-menopausal then it is vital that the progesterone dose you are taking is sufficient to protect the endometrium from over-thickening. You will no doubt be getting some sort of bleed but as these lozenges whatever they are, are unregulated, in my view you should absolutely stick with whatever the private clinic has prescribed and not vary the regime, whatever members of this forum may suggest - and most importantly get any scans that are recommended so tht you know what is happening to your womb lining. I do sympathise with your side effects and the need to try to get your regime right.

Have you thought of trying patches - these may well give a more consistent dose. Apologies I can't remember where you are in menopause or your history.

Hurdity x

[Hurdity]

These are some of them and the last is not research but excerpts from a book:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2783856/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3048776/?crsi=662497358

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5571834/

https://fortwaynephysicalmedicine.com/blog/the-benefits-of-dim

Thanks dangermouse - I'll have a look at those.

Hurdity x

[HelloSam666]

Is it because the progestins attach to your prog receptors, so you stop producing prog of your own...? And progesterone is the calming hormone. Hence my suspicion of the mini pill ultimately unbalancing me. All that time with no progesterone.

I was on combined pills during my twenties and then the mini one after my kids... Can't recall why. I was on cerazette and it always made me a little flat.

I'd take flatness now though 

So, I wonder if this is the same reason Sam is taking prog cream, whilst on the mini pill.

P. S ladies I tried pretty much every pill available in 2020...the bad, the very bad and the ugly!!!!

Hi Crispy Chick, i was just reading the last few posts about this and yes, it could be the reason why i started getting symptoms in the last year or so whilst on the mini pill. And the extra progesterone i now take in the form of a cream has helped massively. And as i said previously re my sister, she takes the same mini pill and the cream is working for her too. It does make sense, what has been said.

[Hurdity]

Just to clarify - we produce progesterone in very small quantities all the time but only in large amounts during pregnancy - the production of which is started by the corpus luteum after ovulation. The calming effect some women feel after taking it (in small quantities) is due to its sedative effect but as far as I understand it, this is only when levels are higher than the background levels we produce anyway ie through the mechanisms above -ie preparing for fertilisation and pregnancy.

Taking any form of synthetic progestogen only has a positive effect on protecting the endometrium or preventing fertilisation and acting as a contraceptive - which is why I've never taken any (apart from a few brief attempts).

If you take the mini pill through menopause and even before it, this has the effect of dpressing oestrogen so eventually this can result in adverse health consequences. There have been instances of women on the mini pill getting VA even in their fetrtile years.

Cerazette definitely depresses oestrogen so you never get that wonderful ovulatory peak when most women feel at their best - so no wonder you felt flat Crispy Chick!

Hurdity x

[HelloSam666]

Hi Hurdity,

as you might have seen from my previous messages, i take the mini pill and progesterone cream. This is all working wonderfully well for me - no hormonal migraines anymore, sleeping better and overall i mentally & physically, i feel well.

I was concerned with your comment "If you take the mini pill through menopause and even before it, this has the effect of dpressing oestrogen so eventually this can result in adverse health consequences. There have been instances of women on the mini pill getting VA even in their fetrtile years"

Are you suggesting that i should stop taking the mini pill because of potential health problems? I don't have VA although i did experience a little dryness but that sorted itself out since using the cream. It was very worrying to read your comments. Thank you.

[CrispyChick]

I agree Sam. What you are saying is very worrying and also very confusing Hurdity.

It's clear you have a lot of knowledge and I see you regularly advocating the 'scientific' regulated approach over, say, bhrt. But your comments on the minipill are worrying.

GPs routinely advise woman in their 40s to take the mini pill over the combined pill, due to the reduced risk from dvt. I have met with this experience myself. I have friends, in their mid 40s, who have been swapped to the mini pill at the slightest hint of a headache on the combined pill.

You are telling us this is unsafe???

Can you explain further.

I do find your comment on VA very interesting as I have suffered some issues previously... Perhaps linked to my use of the mini pill.

So, unfortunately, all you've done for me is reinforce the need to take my health into my own hands and seek alternative help as the one regulated preacription the nhs keep telling me to take is the pill  (both Gp and meno clinic) - with them saying the mini pill is safest at my age. 

[HelloSam666]

Exactly Crispy Chick, I was told in my late 30s that the mini pill was a good, safe option as you get older. And to be honest, i've not had any issues (although i do appreciate it doesn't suit a lot of ladies).

And to be honest, I have wondered whether i need to continue with it as a contraception as i get older but with things being all ok right now, i'm a bit worried about stopping in case it causes any disruption into my wellbeing.

You know, part of me thinks, oh what the hell, i'll continue with my regime, sod the consequences. I know my body, i know how i feel. It's a fine line, as we all know, coming into menopausal symptoms & potentially finding a solution - we don't want then to create waves by changing things. And Crispy Chick, i so hope, there is a solution for you!!!

Thanks Sam

[CrispyChick]

Sam - if I were you, I wouldn't change a thing.

I stopped the mini pill, cerazette, when I was 40...only because my husband (!) forgot to pack my toiletry bag I had laid out when we went away. So I thought, what the hell, I'll stop the pill. Try au naturel...worst mistake I've ever made. It doesn't work for me now, like it did then. Who knows, maybe I'd have become symptomatic anyway, but I wish I'd never stopped.

I have made statements recently about wondering if overall the pill has left me unbalanced - but, trust me, if it took my current symtoms away (even if it unbalanced me later on in life) I'd be on it like a shot!

Stay exactly as you are!!!

Hopefully Hurdity will be able to give some more info on her thoughts. X

[Hurdity]

Hi Hurdity,

as you might have seen from my previous messages, i take the mini pill and progesterone cream. This is all working wonderfully well for me - no hormonal migraines anymore, sleeping better and overall i mentally & physically, i feel well.

I was concerned with your comment "If you take the mini pill through menopause and even before it, this has the effect of dpressing oestrogen so eventually this can result in adverse health consequences. There have been instances of women on the mini pill getting VA even in their fetrtile years"

Are you suggesting that i should stop taking the mini pill because of potential health problems? I don't have VA although i did experience a little dryness but that sorted itself out since using the cream. It was very worrying to read your comments. Thank you.

Hi there HelloSam

Apologies if my comment was confusing or worrying - not my intention at all! My aim is most definitely not to cause worry!

Hopefully I can explain better.

I was referring to the effect of Cerazette on reducing oestrogen levels. This is what it says in the Product info:

"Treatment with Cerazette leads to decreased estradiol serum levels, to a level corresponding with the early follicular phase. It is as yet unknown whether the decrease has any clinically relevant effect on bone mineral density."

So I was trying to say that if it is taken eg through peri-menopause and beyond (for symptom relief) then it is the general long-term consequences of the decreased oestrogen on health (ie bones, heart, genito-urinary system etc) post-menopause that I was referring to, not of course, any direct adverse effects of the mini pill!

I can understand that if it suppresses ovulation and the menstrual cycle then oestrogen and progestogen levels will not fluctuate as they would normally do in peri-menopause and therefore I can see that there will be some relief from symptoms in some women who are OK with progestogens. As I said, it was just the long term effects of oestrogen deprivation that I was referring to and it could be that if women continue to take the mini pill beyond menopause any flushes etc could be due to reduced oestrogen. Not sure if there any studies on this though?

This is why some gynaecologists recommend the other contraceptive pills - Qlaira and Zoely - for younger peri-menopausal women - because they suppress the cycle and therefore dampen the hormonal fluctuations ( in both oestrogen and progesterone) while at the same time providing oestrogen.

I am glad you are feeling well, and I hope that clarifies what I meant - apologies again for the confusion!

By the way if you do start to get VA then this is an indication that you oestrogen is low and one of the vaginal preparations - containing either oestrogen or DHEA is advised. Progesterone is not a treatment for VA.

All the best

Hurdity x

[CrispyChick]

Hurdity, I'm sure Sam will appreciate your reply.

What you say does make sense, but it's very difficult for us when GPs thrust the mini pill out as the safest option (note - I'm in Scotland and I don't think zoley or qulaira available... Most can't even get utrogestan!) However, with my current situation of estrogen fluctuations, the mini pill again sounds appealing - but on my last trials it left me with terrible mood swings. The only thing which seems to have resolved for me currently.

So... Back to my 'alternatives' on this alternatives thread.

So I've done over 2 weeks on the 50mg prog cream (give or take my few days of up and down dosage). My main symptoms are no better. Horrific is still the word I would use.

Must remember I'm also taking Testosterone and dhea cream. That was doubled. That's been 7 1/2 weeks in total. 3 on the double dose (which I think is 14mg test a week - still low dose when I've read the test thread).

So, as per usual, I am horrific the first 11 days of cycle. Nausea, gagging, dizzy, fatigue. Just awful. Then a few milder says around ovulation (not sure I did ovulate?!) then it ramps back up again for a few days. As in yesterday I just felt totally woozy all day with very bad pressure in my ears (not pain).

Today - I feel the clunk change! No longer woozy, sick or ear pressure. Instead today I have a horrifically achy upper back... And feel about 80 years old. I was also mildly sweaty in the night (not bothersome).

So this seems to be my pattern. I surmise it is estrogen dominance in first half of cycle, then when that finally drops - I almost feel low estrogen symptoms....

There is one notable improvement - my mood. I am feeling exceptionally calm. I am not feeling any mood dips. This is lovely. Although I maybe feel slightly sedated. But why, oh why, are the horrific physical symptoms not abating???!

I should add I also started DIM 7 days ago. Went through the 3 day headache, not much else to report on that yet. Taking calcium d glucarate twice a week to help stage 2 liver.

So i'll be stopping the cream on day 21 and restart on day 1 of next cycle. I'm to up to 100mg cream a day. Blood tests next month. Although if I'm testing on day 21, they won't see my estrogen surges 🤔

Any thoughts?

[dangermouse]

Hey, would it be worth stopping the testosterone/DHEA for a while so you are testing one thing at a time? Testosterone made me feel very PMT-like but I didn't carry on long enough to know if it also caused the nausea etc (or added to the unopposed oestrogen symptoms). I also had a bad reaction to DHEA, think that was neurological, more dizziness etc. but that was a few years back to hard to remember. I generally found oestrogen, testosterone and DHEA gave me similar over stimulation reactions. Progesterone did the opposite, hence your lower anxiety, but maybe the prog isn't high enough to defeat all the stimulation from your own oestrogen and the other hormones?

Too low progesterone can definitely make you feel worse too but I know you have already tried raising it but 100 may be better.

I have only even taken the DIM on it's own but I know some on full HRT take it as it doesn't lower oestrogen, just stops it converting to the damaging form of oestrogen. Again, it may have too much to process with all the other hormones.

[CrispyChick]

Oh my goodness Dangermouse - what an eye opener.

I was worried about starting all the hormones at the same time, but that's what the clinic advised.

You've got me thinking now. I've barely had a day of feeling any better since starting test/dhea and the prog - but at that point the prog was just second half of cycle - I remember how bad I was that first cycle after starting it... Assumed it was estrogen kick back - but I wasn't actually taking prog those first 11 days.

Urgh... More decisions. I'm 7 1/2 weeks in and was kinda thinking my stable mood and calmness might be more likely attributed to the test/dhea since I've taken that continuously for 7 1/2 weeks.  .

But, perhaps it is the progesterone. I don't feel well though. So this might be worth a try.

I'll be in trouble with the clinic again though 🤣. I'm due bloods next month. Test and dhea are on the list. I must say, my dhea Hever looked low. My test did.

Also, it reads like we convert Testosterone to estrogen. No idea why?! But it has been crossing my mind.

I started the DIM to try and combat any higher estrogen and to stop that conversion - which I believe it does.

Hmmmm this might be an option. Focus on the prog next month... 🤔

[HelloSam666]

Hi Hurdity, thank you for your detailed reply. In that case, i'll carry on as i am doing but be aware that if i do get any symptoms of VA, i know what i need to do. I'm sure my GP will not provide a prescription for the mini pill indefinitely but i'll cross that bridge when i come to it.

Crispy Chick - Each evening this weekend when i took my mini pill with my G&T, i thought of you :-). And i thought, god, if only this regime could work for you too, i'd drive up to Scotland from Yorkshire and give you all my creams & pills to try!!!

Dangermouse, it's a very good point you make about trying different solutions in isolation. I remember quite a while back, throwing everything but the kitchen sink into the mix and hoping for the best.

 When i think of the amount of money i've spent - private menopause specialist, private prescriptions (sat languishing in a drawer), numerous supplements that were quite expensive and even the prescription for Amitriptyline - which at first i thought was great for migraines/sleep but had no end of awful side effects so abruptly stopped.

So for now, i'll take the mini pill, the 20mg of progesterone each day and see how it goes.

[Mary G]

If you find a regime that works for you, stick with it.

Sam, it sounds like you have really cracked it (I congratulate you for that) so don't allow yourself to be scared off.   You may well need to tweak things later on but you can worry about that if and when the time comes.   

Crispy, the symptoms you describe sound very much like migraine symptoms.   Having researched hormonal migraines, I agree that you probably need to increase the progesterone for that part of the cycle.   

dangermouse, the effects of DHEA seems to be mixed for migraine sufferers, what was your experience, you mention dizziness but did it made your gastric migraines worse?   I wonder if DHEA could be causing some of Crispy's symptoms?

[CrispyChick]

Thank you for taking the time to reply ladies - it means a lot.

Sam - you made me tear up with your drive to scot comment 🤣 Been feeling a little teary the last 2 days... But you set me off  . I am putting the mini pill + prog on my next back up plan. So glad you're not having to go through this hell. I wouldn't think twice about staying with your regime. It's not to say issues won't arise later - but eyes wide open here - I'll prob experience the other end of the spectrum in a few years (low estrogen) and all those merry symptoms too. Take what you can, when u can.

Mary - are you, or were you, taking DHEA??? And what did it do for you??? I found an old thread that read like it had increased your estrogen.

Most 'googles' tell me it increases estrogen and/or Testosterone. I think it's worth a trial of stopping. I've been at my worst, constantly, the 8 weeks I've been taking it.

Dangermouse - when you tried Testosterone and you got pmt and DHEA and you got dizziness... Were these both prescribed through your hormone clinic at similar time to your prog??? Your experience made for very interesting reading.

What kind of migraines Mary??? I get bog standard headachy ones - no aura (all hormonal I think as never had them before all this). I take triptans when needed. No one has ever mentioned vestibular, gastric or silent to me.... At the beginning of all this, 4 years ago, I had a CT and MRI for my dizziness.  My symptoms are constant when here.

I am due to stop my prog on Thurs, for the month. Restart on day 1 of next cycle. I guess that would put me in pmt territory at the moment - not got any of that. Which is great. I wonder if the prog is working a little. It must be if my calmness is from that. Be just my luck it was the DHEA calming me though 🙄. But the prog is not working on the main 'poisoning'...