Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[MrsMitch]

Good morning ladies, I hope you're all doing well. I haven't been on here for a while as there has been so much going on and this really is a different topic to what we usually talk about here but you've always been so wonderfully helpful to me and so supportive, I thought I'd run this by you. Hoping you don't mind!
So this is pet related. I'm not on social media so can't access any groups there may be on there.
Our dog is 11 now. He's a German wire haired pointer/Springer spaniel cross. Before I bore you with loads of info, the point of my post is trying to find out if any of you have had a dog who already struggles with pain from arthritis who then needed cruciate surgery?
I has a really long apt at the vets yesterday as we're struggling to get him 'sound' on his l/h front and now his l/h cruciate needs TPO surgery, his right was done 2 yrs ago. We had to have that dreaded conversation about whether surgery is even viable because of his front lameness.
He's really bright, active and playful in spite of all this so the thought of having him put to sleep is just awful. But even though we've been trying to get him comfortable for over a year, with so many different meds/injections, he's still lame.
Because he has so much arthritis I just don't know what to do. ATM the vet hasn't said there is no option but PTS, she said we have to keep it in mind if we cannot control his lameness adequately because he'd be bearing so much more weight on the front post surgery for months.
Even if none of you have experienced this exact scenario,  thank you for listening. I'm heartbroken tbh.

[CLKD]

Of course U R heartbroken.  Is your dog on any pain relief daily, i.e. Metacam?  What other pain relief has been given and has it relieved the situation?

MayB keep him on short lead walks because dogs don't know how to limit themselves, they play and suffer after.  Is the limp and actual symptom of pain, does it slow him up at all?  Is he reluctant to walk after a while of playing?  Does he whimper or yelp?  Does he rise from his bed without pain, does he take a while to lay down?

Which test did the Vet do, a simply pull out the leg to full to see if there is resistance for example? Has the area of arthritis been scanned ?

What we don't yet understand is how animals deal with pain. Some will sleep up until the area heals enough to go out and hunt.  Others will carry the affected limb.

MayB gentle play in the house, short lead walks so that he can sniff and meet, with appropriate pain relief.  C how he goes, dogs are quite adaptable.  Is he in a crate for resting periods to ease the limbs? 

Is he nearer 12 than 10 for example?  We have a Vet who is extra qualified with orthopaedic issues, is the one who treats your dog?  I would go for it if the pre-op heart and blood tests are satisfactory if he is really showing signs of pain.  However 1 has to consider costs and there will probably be bed rest for a while - U know more about post op then I have experience of.

PTS seems a bit harsh if he is in general enjoying Life.

[MrsMitch]

Hello CLKD, thank you for taking the time to reply. He's just turned 11 and fortunately my vet specialises in orthopedics. She's told me not to keep him on the lead during his walks because she's worried he'll lose muscle and because he's very fit, she says the muscles are helping support his joints.
He's not yelping or whining with pain, just stiff getting up and lame on one foot. He has very misshaped joints, including toes, due to arthritic spurs and boney growths.
He's on Prevacox (anti inflammatory) tralieve (pain med) Amantadine (similar to Ametriptyline) Librella (injection) Retained (injection) so a huge amount!
He still loves life and apart from limping there is no change to his behaviour what so ever. It's just that the vet says he's not a good candidate for surgery because we can't get him sound on his front foot. He took 18 months to recover from the last cruciate surgery, too.
We haven't had xrays yet to diagnose his hind leg because the xrays prior to his last surgery showed this cruciate was already very inflamed so it's unlikely to be anything else.
She said he's just one of those dogs that's very stoic and keeps going no matter what.
So far we haven't managed to get the right combination of meds to get rid if the pain in spite of being on so many.

[SundayGirl]

MrsMitch 
It's really stressful deciding what is best for our fur babies. Your dog sounds like he is still living a good life and more importantly still ruling the roost.

I know it's difficult but you have to weigh up what's best for him. We've had to face "that" decision several times in the past and it's heartbreaking. It doesn't sound like you're there yet. You also have to decide whether, at his age, putting him through another surgery is the best thing or whether to do whatever you can to keep him as fit as possible without resorting to that.

I really feel for you. My current dog will be 11 later this year. 

[sheila99]

You need a crystal ball! Recovery is always slower in an older animal and the enforced rest might make the arthritis worse, plus if he's favouring the arthritic leg it will alter the gait and put more strain elsewhere. I tend to be in the 'give them a chance' camp if he's enjoying life but you don't want a long recovery just to find the arthritis means he's immobile anyway. Is money a factor or will insurance cover it? Perhaps you could ask the vet what they'd do if it was their dog?
 I'm going to be in a similar situation soon. Mine's also 11 and had a leg amputated for cancer 6 years ago. She's slowing down noticeably now and spends longer lying down but I can't tell if she's lame behind as there's only 1 leg. There's more strain on it so joint problems can be expected. On the plus side they gave her 6 months to live so she's had an extra 5 years but I'm still dreading having to make the final decision.

[CLKD]

I've been thinking about your quandary intermittently today, I did read sometime this year about an owner with a similar problem with a cruciate in a dog: can't remember the breed nor the age. It healed on its own with bed rest ......... there4 avoiding surgical intervention.

Could he go swimming MrsMitch? My friend's small mixture has twice-weekly treatment in a pool - costs and arm and a leg - which gives exercise particularly to the muscles obviously non-weight bearing.  A person is in the water with the pooch with my friend shouting encouragement from the side.  Massaging regularly too if he likes fuss.

Quality of Life then 4 you both. Watch and wait. It sounds as though with the current medications he is doing well ............ if he isn't yelping and not avoiding exercise it may be that his own pain receptors are helping. When does he seem to be in the most pain?

sheila99 - that's a lovely update, I remember your thread about yours - I knew when my 4 needed to be PTS ..... we have that privilege and must not keep them for ourselves, though in hindsight I did keep my dog about 2 weeks 'too long'.  If It Should Be that I grow old ...........

[getting_old]

I have always been " a week too early than a day too late" when it comes to pets, depending on quality of life. If they can still do the things that they enjoy and aren't suffering then it's not time.
CLKD's suggestion of water therapy is a great one. It's a very good way for them to get exercise without putting strain on their muscles. I'd alsu suggest looking into chrondrotin and glucosamine supplements to help their joints, and ensure they maintain a healthy weight.

[VioletAquarius]

So sorry to hear this.

I can't really offer any advice, but there's an online company called Buddy & Lola, which  sells natural products for pet health.

I've bought a couple of things for our dogs digestive issues which are great.

They do have a facebook group, which buddy & lola are active on. I know you are not on social media, but it was to inform really that they are a good busines.

If you look on their website, I think it's bouncy bones and/or salmon oil for arthritis. You can also read the reviews for each product on there too.

[CLKD]

Where is the salmon obtained from to get the oil?  Farmed salmon  not good for the environment.  Same with lipped muscles, caught from the wild ........... 

Is there a river close by MrsMitch though my spaniel hated swimming 

[Sophya]

 The situation becomes extremely difficult when deciding for our pets because choosing becomes a mental burden that severs your heart. The way your dog continues to enjoy life makes it clear he is quite resilient.

Swimming presents an excellent solution since it helps develop muscles without excessive discomfort. The addition of glucosamine joint supplements may provide extra therapeutic benefits as recommended by other users. Living with high quality exists as the main focus in this situation. The current state of happiness along with minimal pain suggests surgery might not be necessary at this time. You should watch him closely while following what will benefit you both the most. Selected decision makes you unstoppable 💜

[MrsMitch]

Thank you so very much for your replies, ladies. You're all saying things that my dog walking friends have said over the weekend so you've confirmed the other advice I've had.
So to address a couple of points you made, he has digestive issues in the past and anything with shell fish/fish/oil/ condroitin etc gives him an exploding bum 😆 but he was on another supplement for joints from a pup.
He loves to swim and we're near the beach, river and lakes but my vet says hydrotherapy isn't right for him because his meniscus cartilage may also be torn and swimming isn't good for that. He had 10 weeks at the hydro place after his last cruciate surgery but his recovery so poor and his leg so unstable that he never got in the pool only in the hydro treadmill which tbh I don't think did anything.
He was insured up to when he was bitten by an adder and very nearly died about 3 years ago. It was a baby adder which pumped all it's venom into him. His insurance rocketed to £150 pm so we shopped around and new policies were even higher so we decided it wasn't worth it. We paid for the last one and would again but at over £5k now between what we and the vet think, he's just not a good candidate for the surgery. 2 years ago he was fine when he had surgery but it took 18 months for him to recover and the vet and hydro centre were concerned he didn't do at all well. He should have been weight bearing after 10 days and still wasn't after 6 months. So it wasn't good. 2 years and every joint is arthritic, including toes, he's just not right for surgery because as you pointed out above, the restricted excersise while he recovers from surgery will mean he'll loose muscle tone and he might struggle to even walk due to the pain.
Having chatted to friends with dogs who know my boy, they've said the same as you - he's loving life and it's too soon to say goodbye. I'm looking after a neighbours dog once a week while her husband has cancer treatment and the two of them play together and really have fun. My boy still brings us his toys to play with him every day and can't wait to go for walks. He's happy, bonkers, loving as they all always are.
I have read about people whose dogs have recovered without surgery for cruciate, too. My step sons spaniel did but only after 8 weeks crate rest and again that would mean he'd loose muscle tone.
Every night, he gets onto the bed with us and falls asleep in my husbands arms (used to be me years ago 🤣🤣) and so like all of you with pets, I dread that day. But it's not yet.
Anyway love and hugs to all of you have have lost or are facing 'that decision ' with a pet.
I'll let you know how we get on when we're back at the vets in 2 weeks.
Again, a huge thank you. It really helps to talk it over and hear other's experiences.
The price you pay when you love deeply and say goodbye is enormous.

[CLKD]

Pets leave footprints on our hearts

The other Insurance Policies will be higher due to a pet's health issues ...... so are unlikely to be included or the costs will be more.

Your friends who meet you regularly will also be aware when he is getting less out of Life so U won't be alone in your decisions.   

[MrsMitch]

I thought I'd update: he's still with us!! He's still loving life & although stiff & lame he still wants to do all the things he's always done. He's now on basic old paracetamol which surprisingly after all the expensive treatments helps quite well. I've also just started a new arthritis supplement that his tummy can tolerate & although it's early days I can see a little improvement.
So there's life I the old boy yet!! As sleeping next to me at the moment snoring & farting, wouldn't be without that 😆😆

[getting_old]

That's lovely to read, that he's still going 

[Old Frumpy]

Mrs Mitch - new on here so only just catching up.

I really can relate to everything as my last cocker started to decline with his mobility around 12, he got by on Yumove senior as it was then and he to had digestive problems plus each night you had to stay down wind from him and a dessert spoon of unsweeten canned pumpkin helped.  Laterly he too was on Librela injection every month and 2mg prednisolone daily.

Hubby would not contemplate anything as he said he was eating and content - and this was true he went on till over 15 years enjoyed shorter walks and even went on his usual Ollies (hols) enjoying the beach in Northumberland and loved the extra attention of being lifted in and out the car.  Hope your doggy continues as there is in my mind something lovely about an older dog and the understanding they have in growing old gracefully.

P.S we bought something like a sofa foot stool (long and low) which was at the end of our bed - within minutes he had the art using as a step up to bed.