Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[joziel]

I think the problem is that the advice to wait 3 months or whatever, is putting all side effects and changes together. Things like mood, breast tenderness, bleeding, migraines, and neurological symptoms like some of us have.

When in reality, I don't think ALL these symptoms take 3 months before you know where you're at. Things like bleeding can do, and breast tenderness. These are slow hormonal things. But the neuro symptoms like I have (for me anyway) react much more quickly to dose changes (better or worse) - for changes relating to it acting like a neurotransmitter in our brains, those changes will be relatively fast. I can tell within 48 hours if things are going in the right direction - and after a week for sure. And things then tend to plateau there. They don't continue to improve after that.

[AngelaH]

We don't even understand why things work the way they do. We should be clear on the level of uncertainty.

There is nothing to suggest that it was about 'hormonal balance', rather than fluctuating estrogen - able to fluctuate because I stopped the desogestrel.

When we use hormonal birth control options the body becomes “lazy” to produce original amounts of hormones, because now it relies on some supply from birth control pills/coils. When we stop using them, withdrawal of some amount of hormones happens, it creates hormonal imbalances in the body. During reproductive years it usually takes a little bit time for the body to adjust production of hormones back to normal. But in peri it may not be happened any more because the body starts declining production of the hormones naturally. On the other side adding birth control in peri may help to restore the right balance. Meno symptoms are symptoms of hormonal imbalances. You can have the same symptoms in your reproductive years if your hormones are out of balance. Every single woman goes through menopause, the time when sex hormones naturally fall down but not every one experiences meno symptoms, because when the hormones are falling down, keeping the right balance, the body doesn’t experience meno symptoms.

[AngelaH]

I'm interested to know what progesterone product did you use during your peri years that helped you so much, and at what dosage, if you don't mind sharing.

For me Mirena coil did the good job. My body was low in progesterone, though the estrogen level was still sufficient. Imbalance between normal estrogen and low progesterone gave me horrible meno symptoms, severe hot flashes and night sweats, itching skin, insomnia, anxiety and depression, panic attack, brain fog, loss of memory, fatigue, I felt like nothing was working in my body any longer, I was   dead physically and mentally. I started bleeding nonstop eventually. Mirena coil was fitted and all symptoms were gone overnight. My body is very sensitive to sex hormones, nothing works locally and goes straight to the whole body. This is why the Mirena was so effective for me. It’s not supposed to work for everyone unfortunately.

We don’t really have a choice of progesterone products through NHS, they use progesterone for uterus job only, it seems like they don’t recognise the role of progesterone for other parts of the body, so the only option we really have is birth control products.

[joziel]

"When we use hormonal birth control options the body becomes “lazy” to produce original amounts of hormones, because now it relies on some supply from birth control pills/coils. "

No, that's not really an accurate description of what happens. The synthetic hormones in birth control products suppress our natural hormone production. It's not about our body becoming 'lazy', but suppressed or dormant.

"On the other side adding birth control in peri may help to restore the right balance. "

Again, birth control does not contain natural hormones which our bodies produce, but synthetic hormones - which they have never made. Adding something foreign and not naturally occurring in our bodies does not "restore the right balance" although it can address certain symptoms. Only Zoely and Qlaira birth control contain body identical estrogen and no birth control contains body identical progesterone.

"Every single woman goes through menopause, the time when sex hormones naturally fall down but not every one experiences meno symptoms, because when the hormones are falling down, keeping the right balance, the body doesn’t experience meno symptoms."

Again, that is a massive supposition with zero science or research behind it and is really just your opinion, not fact. We simply don't know why some women experience many symptoms and others experience none. There isn't enough research out there and not even conjecture which makes consistent sense.

[AngelaH]

Again, birth control does not contain natural hormones which our bodies produce, but synthetic hormones - which they have never made. Adding something foreign and not naturally occurring in our bodies does not "restore the right balance" although it can address certain symptoms. Only Zoely and Qlaira birth control contain body identical estrogen and no birth control contains body identical progesterone.

Again, that is a massive supposition with zero science or research behind it and is really just your opinion, not fact. We simply don't know why some women experience many symptoms and others experience none. There isn't enough research out there and not even conjecture which makes consistent sense.

It’s a very interesting point, but my body absolutely doesn’t see the difference between synthetic and naturally produced sex hormones, the same time it refuses to  recognise bio identical as its own.

There is statistics how many women experience meno symptoms. You can look around yourself too, my mum never struggled with menopause like me and she never took HRT. OK, what is your own explanation why meno symptoms do appear?

[joziel]

As I said, Angela, even the best scientists don't have the answers for that yet.

[AngelaH]

As I said, Angela, even the best scientists don't have the answers for that yet.

They don’t have the answers how to treat effectively everyone, but in 21st century they have some knowledge/ideas why meno symptoms appear.

[joziel]

We do not have scientific research demonstrating conclusively why some women but not others experience menopausal symptoms.

[AngelaH]

We do not have scientific research demonstrating conclusively why some women but not others experience menopausal symptoms.

OK, I understand your point of you. 

[Tabitha73]

AnonoMiss, thank you for the book excerpt from Elizabeth Lee Vliet. I asked if progesterone could be somewhat addictive, or habit-forming, or could it create physiological dependence in some way, because one time in what feels like another life I went through an extremely difficult and challenging benzodiazepine withdrawal, more than 10 years ago. Long story, but I'll just say it was the worst time of my life and I'm so glad I did survive it (because some people don't). Hurdity suggested in an earlier reply to my original post that it might be "classic progesterone withdrawal", and that's the very first time I heard of it.

When I took progesterone for the first time its potent effect did sort of remind me a little bit of the calming, sedating feeling I used to get with benzos. However, when I stopped the P what happened wasn't that I felt anxious, restless or tearful, nor did it ever made me feel depressed (when I was on it or when I stopped it).

What happened was that all my worst peri symptoms came back, though not as strong as they were before. And one more of those symptoms was insomnia, which was something that improved immediately once I took progesterone, and also immediately went back to what it was as soon as I stopped taking it, which is something I dreaded it would happen.

I've been learning lately about PCOS which I was diagnosed with as a teen, and for that reason I was put on the pill at 16, and took it for 25 years non-stop. I've learnt that women with PCOS have a chronic lack of progesterone, and also of estradiol since the mechanism involving aromatase that transforms testosterone in estradiol doesn't work properly in us, and so we don't make enough of it. Therefore we're left with too much testosterone, creating a cascade of effects amongst which there's the fact we don't ovulate and so our bodies never make enough progesterone.

I've been thinking lately that maybe my body's been starving for progesterone my whole life, getting only a false version of it in the form of the synthetic progestin that was in the pill, and also getting a fake artificial form of estradiol in it. So for many many years I've been sort of functioning without my natural hormones being balanced, or being sufficient. And so I have a feeling that now my body is for the first time getting the bioidentical forms of the two hormones it had actually been craving for and desperately needing for decades. And well I'm not sure what I'm saying here as I need to do a lot more research, reading and thinking about this, but I think HRT may be exactly what my body has been needing all my life, even before perimenopause began, I'd say from my teenage years, my PCOS could probably have been treated and corrected with bioidentical HRT.

Anyway I sort of went off on a tangent there sorry but as for the progesterone I'll keep researching and reading and experimenting and closely watching what happens in myself, although the fact that progesterone is what we naturally make all our lives, it being a natural thing that belongs to our bodies, unlike benzodiazepines, makes me think it couldn't be detrimental. But I'll keep looking into it as I for sure wouldn't want to go through anything remotely similar to what I went through with benzo withdrawal. I just suspect that just may not be the case for me, but it's too soon to say that.

Hello, I realise this is an older post but I found your response so interesting. I’m in a similar boat to you: I was pretty much starved of natural endogenous progesterone until about 6 months ago when Utrogestan was added to my HRT regime. I had no periods in my teens or 20s due to exercise associated amenorrhoea (I was a runner and was underweight). In my 30s I went on the oral contraceptive pill, which I was in until my 40s. I had anovulatory cycles in my mid-late 40s and menopause at age 51. Thereafter I had Mirenas until age 59 when I started on Utrogestan - vaginally. I felt marvellous on it for 5 months: good sleep (at last), reduced anxiety and a general sense of wellbeing. But that has worn off and my sleep is bore terrible again. So my conclusion is that I developed tolerance to the brain effects (on GABA receptors) of progesterone metabolites.

How are you doing now?

[rferdi]

Hello, I realise this is an older post but I found your response so interesting. I’m in a similar boat to you: I was pretty much starved of natural endogenous progesterone until about 6 months ago when Utrogestan was added to my HRT regime. I had no periods in my teens or 20s due to exercise associated amenorrhoea (I was a runner and was underweight). In my 30s I went on the oral contraceptive pill, which I was in until my 40s. I had anovulatory cycles in my mid-late 40s and menopause at age 51. Thereafter I had Mirenas until age 59 when I started on Utrogestan - vaginally. I felt marvellous on it for 5 months: good sleep (at last), reduced anxiety and a general sense of wellbeing. But that has worn off and my sleep is bore terrible again. So my conclusion is that I developed tolerance to the brain effects (on GABA receptors) of progesterone metabolites.

How are you doing now?

Hi Tabitha73, are you taking the progesterone orally, and is it continuous or cyclical? And at what dose?  I'm now in month 8 of cyclical use of Seidigestan (I'm still in perimenopause -52 years of age- and started HRT in April last year, but I was put directly on a continuous regime, which didn't suit me) and I still notice the progesterone is helping me sleep much better than on the 2 weeks when I'm not taking it, however yes it's true its sedative effect doesn't seem to be as potent as it was in the beginning.

This does concern me a bit sometimes, it seems tolerance development is different in each woman. What I noticed from the beginning of taking P is that if I took it with food still in my stomach I wouldn't get as much of a sedative effect, whereas if I made sure to take it on an empty stomach the effect was very intense.  That's still the case for me, so I try to always take it at least 4 hours after dinner, and I don't eat anything else till next morning.

I'm sorry that you're not getting the sleep benefits anymore, my sleep was terrible too without the P during the 2 weeks I don't take it. I recently found a supplement that's helping me quite a bit, it actually has a sort of similar effect as P in the GABA receptors, it's related to allopregnanolone as well, just like P. Thanks to it I can sleep quite well during those nights when I'm off the progesterone, its sedative effects feel very similar.   
 
The name's PEA or palmitoylethanolamide, it's sold as an anti-inflammatory and pain relieving supplement, but it also has calming effects. I've been trying it for the past couple of months, at different dosages, and interestingly I've noticed whenever I take it on an empty stomach the sedative effect is much stronger and happens faster, just like with P. I'm a bit concerned about developing tolerance as well though, so still learning more about this supplement. I don't know if this could also help you?

[joziel]

rferdi thanks for the new to me idea of palmitoylethanolamide, I've just googled it and it sounds like something I might want to try.

As an update, I'm now on a total of 275mcg of patches, plus 6 pumps of gel before bed. At last test, I was at 650pmol but that was on 200mcg patches and the 6 pumps. I have another Tasso test from Randox on the way, which I'll do either this cycle or next. It is ridiculous being on this dose and only have access to 25 Estradots now, due to the shortage. I have a million patches stuck on me. (Part of the reason I increased is because each patch gets a dirty ring around it and doesn't stick on the very edge, so if you are getting your dose from multiple smaller patches, I reckon you are getting less than from fewer large patches.)

I am also on more utrogestan because my last Tasso Randox test showed that my levels were only just into the acceptable range and if I'm on this much estrogen, really it should be higher for the ratio. I am taking it all vaginally now, 300mg in the evenings and 200mg in the mornings. Part of the reason for this is that in the UK (and I think in Europe), we can only reliably test progesterone if we take it vaginally (or rectally). This is because of the metabolites which are produced when you take it orally which cause false highs - they show as proper progesterone when they are not, they are metabolites waiting to be excreted. In the US, they have LC-MS progesterone tests which are reliable for oral P - but we don't have those in the UK. (I've tried...) SO - if you want to know how much P you're getting, it seems you can't take it orally in the UK.

Plus, Dr Felice Gersh believes that taking P orally and getting all these sedative effects could be not great for dementia risk and cognition as we get older. I mean, no one's done the research to find out what happens if older women take oral P for decades and have all this GABA stuff sedating them at night....

Anyway, sleep-wise, things are ok-ish but not totally normal. I'm getting between 6-7 hours total, whereas 8 would be normal for me before this mess began. I still have faint tingling in my feet. My hands often go numb still and I also get joint pain in my fingers when I open/flex them in my sleep, which was one of my original pre-HRT symptoms that seems to have come back again. I still often wake around 5am - although I can now usually have a wee and go back to sleep. I don't think I'm getting enough deep sleep, going by how I feel and by my Apple Watch - about 30mins many nights, but I have got up to an hour and once even an hour and 15 mins    So things are liveable now but not normal for me.

One new avenue I'm exploring is vitamin A. I did the Ancestry DNA test and downloaded the raw data. Ancestry flagged that I don't convert beta carotene to vitamin A well - I have a 69% reduction in conversion. I also have another gene which causes low circulating levels of vitamin A. So it is very likely I am vitamin A deficient, although it is hard to test for because most of it is stored in the liver and blood tests don't show a deficiency well. But I did some ChatGPT ing and apparently it can cause neurological symptoms, like peripheral neuropathy (tingling) and autonomic nervous system issues at night - plus starting HRT can (in many ways) cause a borderline deficiency to become a clinical one - which would make sense for me, seeing this all originally began when I started HRT.

SO - I've been taking 10,000IUs of vitamin A and will continue that for 6 months and see where I am. It's only been a week so far but I am actually feeling like the tingling has lessened a bit...

I hope you're making progress

[rferdi]

Hi joziel, so much interesting information in your post. My god I don’t know how you deal with all those patches, I’d be really stressed out. There should be other options for women who need that amount of estradiol, other than sticking a million patches on! 

I'm a work in progress here, I've recently increased my estradiol a bit, and I'm noticing improvements in many of my symptoms, which some of them were very similar to yours (pounding heart, fluttering heart, internal vibration, tingling hands/feet, dizziness etc). I'm a bit slow when it comes to increasing my dosage, I’m now on 3 sprays of Lenzetto a day (I switched from Oestrogel to Lenzetto a couple of months ago), but I've noticed a definite improvement doing 1 spray in the morning and 2 at night. This time around however I'm allowing a couple of months only to assess before another increase (before I’d wait much longer).

My last blood test, which I did on day 3 of my cycle (I think that's the best time?) showed 49,45pg/ml. Pg/ml is the measure labs do here in Spain, not pmol. But according to a conversion chart that should be about 182pmol. Here in Spain is more difficult than in the UK to find a doctor who's well-informed enough to prescribe HRT, fortunately I found a couple of them who are included in my health insurance plan, however they have limitations, like for example my current doctor told me 3 sprays of Lenzetto would be the maximum dose she prescribes. So if this is not enough for me I'll have to find another doctor willing to go for a higher dose (I'm already on the hunt for this).

As for progesterone, I also took the blood test on the same day, maybe I should've done another one on day 21 or so, specifically for progesterone. But this one shows 0,81pg/ml which is 2.97pmol. Not sure what the desirable range is. My doctor looked at all these results and said it's all fine, but I don't trust her judgment entirely, I've noticed every doctor has a different set of rules and info they go by, and may interpret results in completely different ways. For example she told me to take less vitamin D3 because I was at 77ng/ml, and I should be about 50, yet a different doctor last year told me up to 100 is optimal.

We don't have Tasso Randox testing here, however I'm sure there must be something equivalent, but I've not looked into it as I get all blood testing with health insurance, the only downside is a doctor has to request it.  I'm very interested in the LC/MS progesterone tests, I'm gonna find out if this is something they do here. I suppose if you take progesterone vaginally, you don't get the sleepy side effects do you?

I watch Dr. Felice Gersh's videos too, and I like her approach a lot. I can tell you if I had the money I'd definitely have her as my doctor. I did see her in a few videos lately where she talks about this issue she sees with taking progesterone, one was an interview with someone, she explained in detail and it did make sense. What I understand is that when taken orally we absorb part of the progesterone and the rest is metabolized into something else, (I think allopregnanolone?) and I think the allopregnanolone then affects the GABA receptors which is what makes us sleepy.

Talking about allopregnanolone, this PEA palmitoylethanolamide supplement has become a life saver for me when it comes to sleep, during my 2 weeks off progesterone. I get deep sleep, about 7 hours nightly. If my stomach is empty I take 400mg and that's enough, if I've had a late dinner or have snacked something not long before bed and notice I still have food in my stomach then I'll take 600mg for the same effect. Palmitoylethanolamide increases levels of allopregnanolone, which is what makes it sleep-inducing. I myself wouldn't take it on the same nights when I take progesterone though, I don't know how they could interact with each other, but on the nights off I have no problem. However I'm still a bit worried about how all this allopregnanolone (from progesterone and from PEA) could potentially be habit forming, because of how its effects seem to be very similar to benzodiazepines (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9316828/). I need to find out more, but for now this is helping me a lot.

How very interesting what you've found out about vitamin A. In the same blood test I got 0.53mg/L of vitamin A, which is supposed to be normal but on the lower range, I wonder if you got your levels tested, and if you know what test is reliable for vitamin A. I eat/drink a fair bit of dairy every day, so I'm not sure I need supplementation, but I'm looking forward to hearing about your progress taking the 10.000IU's.

Oh just make sure it's not synthetic vit A, (I think the natural form is Retinyl Palmitate). But I guess you must know this already

[Mary G]

rferdi, as you may remember, I'm in Spain too and with Adeslas which is probably similar to your health insurance company.  With blood tests, I get slip from the gynaecologist but I've got a load of A4 sized tick box forms which the doctor gave me and photocopied them so I just tick all the extra tests that I want to have (over and above the hemograma) like hormones, all the thyroid tests, vitamins plus the all the cancer marker tests.  It's one hell of lot of tests and I do it once a year.  The lab then send the results directly to me a couple of days later. 

I also found doctors unhelpful with HRT but I just do my own thing and buy Oestraclin and Darstin which I find very good and obviously I'm scanned and checked by the gynaecologist every year plus I have yearly breast scans.  I like Lenzetto because it's so user friendly but unfortunately it was too weak and my migraines returned. 

I hope that helps.

[joziel]

Hi rferdi - Lenzetto is very low dose, as a product. So it's not used much here because women end up needing too many pumps of it to get enough. You will probably have more luck switching to Oestrogel or patches - even if you stay at the max licensed dose, you will get more from those than from Lenzetto (on average).

182mpol is very low, so you def need more... 270pmol is the minimum just to protect bones.

I didn't test vitamin A because that just tests the levels in the blood and not what is stored in the liver. And you'd need to be really really low in the liver before that showed in the blood. So I decided just to supplement and see if I felt better. Yes, I'm on retinyl palmitate...