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[discogirl]

Hello everyone,

Well I'm at a bit of crossroads really and not quite sure what to do.

I started hrt last august (i was 4 yrs post meno) symptoms were tinnitus, insomnia and anxiety.

I started on patches then in november went to gel. I increased my gel to 4 pumps at the beginning of dec however that was too much for me as my boobs were really really sore (and felt hot!!!) and my tinnitus got really bad.

So I decreased to 3 pumps of gel, I also started taking my utrogestan orally rather than vaginally, however in all that time my sleep hasn't really got back to where it used to be.

I now can get to sleep however its staying asleep that's the issue. A good nights sleep for me now is 5 or 6 hours, usually about 4 hrs.

I had my bloods done a few weeks ago and my estrogen levels were 288.

I'm wondering whether just to stop hrt altogether, give the gel a bit more time as I do like the convenience of the gel or maybe even try patches again but maybe a different brand.

Thanks for listening everyone xxx

[Gilla999]

It's a tough one isn't it. Over the last couple of years I've become a bit reluctant to give advice because it's so easy to base it off your own experience only. But for me personally, a classic low Estrogen symptom is sleep maintenance insomnia. Very different kind of insomnia to generalised anxiety insomnia where you can't get to sleep. Low Estrogen insomnia specifically causes me to wake up anywhere between 1am-3am, feeling like it's 8am. And don't get back to sleep. Usually but not always it's accompanied by night sweats. I guess it's trying to work out for you whether 288 is perhaps still a little low and you'd benefit from an increase - perhaps 3 isn't enough but 4 was too much? I find it really frustrating not being able to get smaller doses for those of us who are sensitive! I'm not sure if it's at all possible to do half a pump of gel?

Patches are slightly easier that way as you can cut them - have you tried patches before Disco? Sending love xx

[discogirl]

hi gilla999

your so right. initially when i first started hrt my estrogen levels were 19 and it took me ages to nod off. since ive started taking the utro orally that does seem to help me nod off.

and your exactly right waking between 1am and 3am and feel like its 8am. has anything worked for you?

ive even wondered about splitting the dose between am and pm.

i would do half a pump but its making sure its the right measure each time.

i was on patches when i first started hrt last august. they were estraderm but they didnt really do anything.

ive often thought about estradot xxx

[Dotty]

Hi the answer to your question is not an easy one. As Gilla999 had said, what suits one lady doesn’t suit another.

HRT is not the answer to everything and it may never remedy all of your problems. Sleep is a difficult one and the more you worry about it the worse it will get. So something that was caused by low oestrogen may now be caused by something else.

There is no magic oestradiol level either. You might need a level of 100 and I might need 500…this is why blood levels are pointless. However, a reading of 288 is still quite low to ease menopausal symptoms. I’ve just looked up advice from a reputable menopause expert and she says that levels should be between 300 - 600. Another eminent menopause specialist recommends much higher levels , especially for anxiety and depression.

The decision is entirely yours , with the advice of your GP. I would consider what HRT has made better for you. Look at the Greene’s Climateric Scale and work out where you were at your worst and where you are now. You might find yourself surprised at what symptoms have actually disappeared.

If the patches weren’t helping you at all then you probably needed a higher dosage. If the 3 pumps of gel isn’t getting rid of all your symptoms , then you probably need a higher dosage . If you want to reset your body then stop taking the hrt. You may be one of the ladies who doesn’t need hrt any longer.

Good luck in whatever you choose. x

[Gilla999]

Disco the only thing that worked to fix my hormonal insomnia was starting HRT. Before it was actually accepted or realised by both myself and doctors that it was my hormones causing it, I was put on every drug under the sun for insomnia. Tried them all - none of them helped. Again, everyone is very different but for me if something (sleep, depression etc) is being caused by imbalanced hormones, it's addressing that that has been the only thing to ever help me.

However as Dotty says I can only speak from my own experience and just because the 3am insomnia is my "beacon" of low Estrogen, it doesn't mean it's the same for others.

If your only issue with the increase to 4 pumps was the boobs, I do wonder if (if you could manage a half dose of gel) half an increase might help you - or at least give you an indication if hormones really are the cause behind the sleep issue? I totally agree on the accuracy of half doses though, it's very frustrating and you don't want to be sending yourself up and down.

What dose of Estraderm were you on? I've only ever tried Estradot so can't comment on differences between brands, although have observed ladies here feeling like one works better for them over another xx

[Gnatty]

Try drawing a thin black felt tip line half way down the pump nozzle and depress it until it gets to that line every time you want a half measure? Won't be totally accurate but probs good enough x

[discogirl]

thats such a good idea Gnatty thanks for that xx

[MrsMitch]

Hello Discogirl, I know I'm a bit late to your thread but I just wanted to say your sleep issue is the same as mine. I can drop off easily but cannot stay asleep.  I usually wake every hour or so all through the night. I'm always exhausted.
I've just gone up to 4 pumps of gel then progestogen is now going to be continuous instead of 14 days out of 28. I'll be interested to follow how you get on.

[discogirl]

Hello Discogirl, I know I'm a bit late to your thread but I just wanted to say your sleep issue is the same as mine. I can drop off easily but cannot stay asleep.  I usually wake every hour or so all through the night. I'm always exhausted.
I've just gone up to 4 pumps of gel then progestogen is now going to be continuous instead of 14 days out of 28. I'll be interested to follow how you get on.

hi Mrsmitch

i will let you know.

i take from your post your still in peri.

i sometimes wonder how much of my sleep issues are psychological.

i was on 4 punps of gel but dropped down to 3 which has been good for me.

i hope you get sorted. take care and keep in touch xxx

[MrsMitch]

Apparently I'm now post as my last period not induced by the HRT was over 12 months ago. So the GP decided that due to being 55 it's likely my periods have long since finished. I haven't had an HRT induced bleed since August last year, either. 
Have to admit I've been loving that!!

[VioletAquarius]

I go from falling asleep straightaway to taking ages to fall asleep, and the vast majority of the time waking up 2 or 3 times through the night most nights.
I have done so for years, didn't know this was a menopause thing.  Anyway, I've started drinking Aldi's Sleep herbal tea before bed, reading fb posts a lot of people were saying how much they helped their sleep, so thought I'd give it a try.
I have only been taking them about 2 weeks but I've fallen asleep straightaway and only seemed to have woken up through the night when getting a sweat on. 
As my sleeping patterns change, as described above, I need to take this for longer to really know whether they help, but so far, they seem to be working.

[discogirl]

hi VioletAquarius

im 4yrs post meno and was ok until last year really. until then i could quite literally sleep for britain.

on hrt and sleep has improved but tbere is no pattern to my sleep at all. i can fall asleep straight away for about 40 mins to an hour wake up then take a couple of hrs to get back to sleep. i seem to average between 5 to 6 hrs which is good for me now.

thanks for the tip about the tea. its worth a try xxx