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[CrispyChick]

Excellent point Gilla.

From the other perspective, I would also add that many of us in peri are offered hrt before our periods go haywire - but it is actually the nosedive in progesterone leading to our symptoms. So 'conventional' hrt adds more estrogen to our already normal or surging estrogen = hell. The only alternative is just leave us be and invest time and money investigating every hormonal issue in isolation, not accepting they are hormonal.

Just because something hasn't been researched in the UK, doesn't make it unreal.

So so very frustrating. My symptoms are real. Let me tell you. 5 years of hell and absolutely no help whatsoever from Nice guidelines and the NHS. But that's OK, I'm at peace with that now. They can't invest in research for everything.

But, please please let me discuss this with other woman in either a similar position, or using alternative medicine that may help me. That, for me, is what this forum is all about.

If there are any ladies out there trying bespoke products, alternative products, new ways of taking mainstream products (I at one point squeezed some utrogestan out using a kebab skewer), please join the chat and share your experiences. We so so value them. Xxx

[HelloSam666]

Thank you for your support Gilla999.

What a journey you had to find someone who was able to help eventually. It's worrying that there is so much conflicting information and that the experts who's help we seek can be so rigid in their knowledge and advice. Each and everyone of us are unique with menopause and need to have a regime that works for us individually irrespective what the guidelines state.

[Gilla999]

Thank you Sam - I think the key is every woman's experience is different and as you say should be treated on an individual basis!

Crispy, I would like to add - and this now IS me purely hypothesising ....

... my first "symptoms" started in 2018 aged 39, where for two years like clockwork from day 14 till my period I had the most horrendous swollen, painful boobs. Like carrying around two water melons. My cycles had also shortened from 33 to 27/28 days. The boob thing was so bad that I got a private hormone test which showed that during my luteal phase my E was going sky high - way over the limit. I wasn't offered any help with this and no one explained to me that soaring Estrogen and/or falling Progesterone are often the earliest signs of Peri (as discussed in multiple scientific studies). After 2 years of experiencing that my E began to slowly climb back down from its super high level (again, proved by blood tests and matching with symptom pattern) and that was when I immediately began suffering from horrendous low E symptoms, even though my E level was still relatively medium. But it was the climb high Estrogsn dominance to "medium/low Estrogen" that caused my symptoms. I hypothesise that had I have been offered Progesterone only in the luteal phase of my cycle during this first time frame (therefore removing the crazy high Estrogen dominance exposure that my brain had for 2 years) that the ensuing gradual climb down of E would not have been so problematic for me. Because my brain would not have been exposed to such high unopposed levels for two years. It's well spoken about between meno specialists (Lara Briden, Marian Gluck etc) that Progesterone only treatment can be very useful at the start of Peri, so not a total radical theory of mine! So I totally agree with you Crispy that for many women it is not necessarily that Estrogen HRT is the saviour for all - there is so much variance and in my case too I feel that earlier on would have benefitted from other treatment.

[CrispyChick]

Very informative. Thanks, Gilla.

Gosh, I'd never thought about my body getting used to these extremes and then behaving more extremely when my own E finally drops. I'm glad I'm not just sitting still accepting this is my fate until that happens then. What you say makes sense.

My period of low P and normal E seems to be lasting a very long time 

[Gilla999]

How long has it been Crispy? It was a little over 2 years for me.

BTW I'm not suggesting that what happened to me might be the same for all - it does seem as if some women are just more sensitive to changes in E and I appear to be one of the lucky chosen ones 

[CrispyChick]

5 years. On the nose. Although I was suffering severe pms before that - which I'm led to believe is low prog.

I think for me, it's not high E, never has been. It's just very very low P. That said, in trying the prog cream it seemed to release hidden estrogen from my tissues, so I must be pretty well endowed with E overall - just not always circulating.

I did tank my Estrogen 2 months ago on a detox herbal mix (as proven by my Dutch) and, without a doubt, the results weren't all pleasant and that's what triggered this severe bout of gastritis I'm still battling.

Now I think I'm back yo my normal, so I'm testing on day 21ish to see.

So I think you might be onto something. We're meant to gradually lose our hormones, probably in sequence. Personally, and this is just my view, i think years on the pill are to blame for a lot of my imbalance. I won't have been making prog during all those cycles. 

[HelloSam666]

It's well spoken about between meno specialists (Lara Briden, Marian Gluck etc) that Progesterone only treatment can be very useful at the start of Peri, so not a total radical theory of mine!

Actually Gilla999, in some ways this is this is why i ended up taking progesterone cream. Initially i was given a standard HRT prescription from the menopause specialist but I felt absolutely awful. After much research on my part, i took the plunge and starting using a progesterone cream. This sorted all my issues and in particular the debilitating migraines and insomnia along with my mood. This worked well for quite a while. And it's only since i started getting some night sweats that i bought a cream with estriol in which sorted that out. Progesterone was key for me at the start of my menopause journey.

[Gilla999]

Very interesting Sam - it's what I really feel would have helped me in the early days too, and prevented such extreme problems with Estrogen so "early" afterwards. Maybe in the future there will be more research and awareness into the benefits of Progesterone earlier on and also - crucially - the balance between E and P. People like Lara Briden, Marian Gluck and my meno specialist Dr Susie Rockwell are starting to talk about it, but still a way to go!

[Mary G]

Thanks Gilla, that is very interesting.

I agree that tanking progesterone (which is the hormone that diminishes first) has a profound effect on women in perimenopause causing panic attacks, anxiety, insomnia, nausea, migraines and much more.  This is what many refer to as oestrogen dominance.

I really don't like the rigidity of many of the NHS guidelines or the dogma and zero tolerance of different HRT products.  I think the NHS guidelines need to be reviewed and in many cases changed but they are in crisis right now and don't have the bandwidth.

I too hope others with non standard regimes join us on here.

[Scampidoodle]

Definitely agree, the more people who post who respond who have had success by not using the ‘more estrogen’ model the better as it just doesn’t suit everyone.

Thanks Gilla for your posts it makes total sense to me and I agree progesterone May have helped you initially.

I’m still going ok on the Dim, I’m unsure if I’m just having a good run but my mood feels better and I just feel a bit more positive and I’m in climbing estrogen phase getting ready for ovulation. I ate too many high histamine foods yesterday and got a migraine but that’s my fault.

I was reading up on dim and it says it’s a really potent anti inflammatory and also helps neuro inflammation. Wonder if that’s why I feel brighter?

Still undecided whether what I need to do is manage my oestrogen via the use of dim or just use the progesterone cream with no dim. We’ll see. Chaser biovea as it left the states on 1st jan and no sign yet! 

[Gilla999]

MaryG just to say I totally agree: tanking Prog could very well often be the reason behind what people term as Estrogen dominance (except in cases such as PCOS). My Estrogen was very high - something like 4 times over the top of the luteal range - but I still think it's possible that I've always had high E (I have high SHBG) and as we say it was actually the declining Progesterone that caused the issues for me at that early stage.

[CrispyChick]

But, just to muddy the waters ladies, and unfortunately highlight that is still not always that simple - That's me tried prog only for 12 months and, without shadow of a doubt, it increased my estrogen. 

The theory being, from some experts in the States - that it can release estrogen that has retreated into tissues. Or maybe it was converting. Whatever mechanism, it happened and I've had a terrible year. (and try discussing that phenomenon with a UK doctor  )

And without testing, I'd not have had a clue.

Marion gluck told me last Nov that my E was normal and my P rock bottom - take some progesterone. It sounded so simple. I was so excited. Nothing is simple in this hormonal game. 

It clearly works for some though. So I do urge people to try themselves. But...if its making you feel worse, don't continue for as long as I did thinking it'll get better.

This is all about personal balance. I think I will try prog again in future, probably when my own E drops, as it can then go about releasing that hidden E cause I'll bloody well need it then 

Scampi - I'm quite exited to hear how the dim continues for you. When I took it, i was also taking the P cream - so no idea what was what, so although it's a pain that it's not arrived yet, it is best to try one new thing at a time - so it's forcing you to do just that  .

[Scampidoodle]

This is true crispy, I’m definitely one for trying multiple things in desperation then not knowing what’s what!

I agree it’s important messaging that if something is making you feel horrendous, trust your own judgement and maybe think about coming off it instead of persevering. Unless it’s a completely common reaction (ie my awful migraine when starting dim)

I’ve had gynaes (nhs and private and private meno specialists) encourage me to plough on with meds or hormones when actually they were doing me harm. I feel able to advocate for myself now but only as I’ve been through that.

[Scampidoodle]

So just to update. Day 14 of Dim and day 13 of my cycle. For about the last week or so I’ve felt a lot more like me. More balanced I guess. Less anxious for sure. No hot flushes or nausea or breast pain.

I’m going to see how my pre period goes. I’ve been taking 100mg in the morning with food. I have missed a couple of days with just forgetting but noticed no difference those days.

Does anyone know if dim builds up in your system? Or is it flushed out regularly.

My biovea cream arrived finally! Haven’t written that off at all I just wanted to see how the dim went for a full cycle first. I don’t want to jinx things but so far I’m far better than pre dim xx

[HelloSam666]

Hi Scampidoodle, that is good news & sounds promising with the Dim. I tried that once, early last year but had the most blinding headache with it, like crushing on my skull. Didn't take anymore until a few weeks later and thought I would give it one more chance but had the same experience. Bizarre but we're all different. If you need any more, i can post you the jar!

Good news on the Biovea package arriving, that took a while but it's there if you need it now