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[Gilla999]

I second that feeling! It's not unpleasant (for me, I know others experience it as anxiety) but I am distinctly aware that it's not natural. I do however feel that getting your Progesterone and Estrogen balanced is just as important to consider as reducing your Estrogen necessarily. I've certainly found since increasing my Progesterone dose that the symptoms of high Estrogen are lessening.

Pippa so glad to hear you've had a better few days and that putting it on in the morning is working for you. It sounds like the way forward is to just continue to take it slowly now with any changes that you make. Keeping everything crossed that you continue to improve 

[Marchlove]

You might find this article interesting.
It’s suggesting that oestrogen is actually addictive.

https://www.menstruationresearch.org/2010/05/13/hooked-on-estrogen/

M x

Sorry the Berberine didn’t turn out to be the part of the  cause Joziel. Worth a try though and hopefully you’ll get your answers soon.

[Gnatty]

I think that Pippa, Vintage Fiend and I are all in the same situation in that we don't have to take progesterone. I did experiment two or three weeks ago with a progesterone cream I bought from the States. It was a pretty horrible experience. It made me too warm, foggy and and a bit low so I stopped it after a week. A few days after it had all settled down again thank goodness. I was worried I had done lasting damage! Now from reading up on adding in progesterone it is quite normal to have some pretty unpleasant symptoms for the first few weeks. So I could have carried on I guess. However I don't feel I have resilience to cope with that!! Maybe I'll try again at some later date. I think too that our bodies can make enough progesterone for our needs, I read this somewhere. Have a feeling from cholesterol but please dont quote me on that.... There is a surgical menopause help group in the state's I look at from time to time and I think it was from there I got that info. The general consensus on that website is we are better off without progesterone especially once we have the right levels of oestrogen. I am aware tho that there is another camp that voices the opposite opinion, ie we should take it even though we don't need it. My Meno Dr at Newson Health was definitely anti taking progesterone. It would be good to hear from others if their Meno drs are for or against progesterone for those of us that don't have wombs.

[joziel]

I kind of think the truth is somewhere in the middle here, at least - for me - which is why I like Lara Briden's stuff.

By all that, I mean that I don't think progesterone is the solution to all ills but neither do I think it is an awful thing everyone should avoid. And I don't think the extremes about estrogen either. I totally believe some women when they say they need a blood level of 800pmol+ to feel okay. And I totally believe others who are not even sure they can tolerate a 25mcg patch. I totally believe some women who have debilitating side effects from progesterone and can't tolerate it even after persevering for months. And I totally believe others who really need it and seem immune to any negative side effects from it (like me).

Unfortunately I think many doctors get really polarised and set into their camp and way of reasoning and it then becomes very hard for them to step back into an unbiassed position and keep reassessing the evidence and revising their position. This goes for doctors on both side of the E and P thing.

For me, I'm not able to solve the entire world's mysteries when it comes to E and P and can only try to find a solution that works for me and my body. I'm reluctant to extrapolise from that to other people because it seems we are all so different. But I guess I do try to look out for people who may be experiencing a hormone in the same way as me.

But I think it's important to try to convey to women struggling the diversity of opinions out there so that, if the UK mainstream approach isn't working for them (as it didn't for me) they don't just give everything up and abandon themselves to zero hormones - but that they have a direction to go in, to research and investigate exactly which hormones they can take, in what quantities... Because surely taking some of our three hormones has to be better than none, as our ability to make our own declines.

[Flan747]

Hi ladies, sorry to jump in, I’ve just posted and saw this post. I have increased form Evorel 75 to 100 on Friday and I have had the most awful time, mainly low mood and horrendous headache! Should I wait for it to see if it settles or go back to 75 although I had terrible anxiety when on the 75? Just can’t seem to settle. Starting 200 utro on the 1st moving to continuous, hoping that may settle things. Any thoughts welcomed, been on HRT for over 3 years and can’t get it right but this is getting worse on the patches,been on patches since March x

[joziel]

It's going to take more than 48hrs for your body to settle on a hormone change. If you wanted, you could split the difference and have 87.5 as halfway between 75 and 100. Otherwise, you need to give it more time to see what effect the dose change really has...

[Flan747]

Thanks Joziel, bloody hard going all this isn’t it? I popped on a 100 in preparation for the new patches which should arrive Tuesday? That’s a good idea,so just cut a small piece out of the 100? Xx I always worry I’ve gone the wrong way and may need less, I did feel like ripping it off this morning and popping a 50 on, your mind goes into over drive doesn’t it xx

[Gilla999]

Just wanted to say I totally agree with you Joziel on the "two camps" thing as I have very much experienced and noticed this myself between meno experts.

Also I haven't yet read the article but Marchlove my personal experience is that I would 100% classify myself as having been addicted to Estrogen - I've joked about it in the past saying "My name's Gill and I'm an Estrogen addict". I have had / do have a truly awful time reducing my Estrogen (slowly) even when I know for a fact it's too high and causing my body problems as a result. This also isn't restricted to HRT - I believe that the problems started so early for me in Peri (aged 41, periods still very regular) pecisely because I went through two years of my own E soaring naturally and when it started to slowly reduce naturally I became hideously symptomatic even when it was still at a medium level. I've hardly seen this kind of thing talked about except for a couple of bits of research when it comes to ladies who've had an Estrogen implant, so very interesting to hear someone mention it!

Also just add to add on the topic of Progesterone - I completely agree everyone is individual and there's no "one size fits all". After a lot of trial and error you get to know what's true for your body xx

[Gnatty]

Interestingly one of the sure signs of having too high oestrogen levels is feeling like you are addicted/ counting down to the next dose!

[Flan747]

Wow this sounds like me🙈 always thinking about the next patch change, what is house change it to etc etc. feeling awful and don’t know which way to turn. I’m a right old mess if I’m honest. X

[Gnatty]

https://surmeno.blogspot.com/2006/03/symptoms-of-estrogen-imbalance.html

Have a look on this link, hope it works. The site is for women in surgical menopause but the symptoms of oestrogen imbalance I imagine would still be relevant for women in general.

[Pippa52]

I second that feeling! It's not unpleasant (for me, I know others experience it as anxiety) but I am distinctly aware that it's not natural. I do however feel that getting your Progesterone and Estrogen balanced is just as important to consider as reducing your Estrogen necessarily. I've certainly found since increasing my Progesterone dose that the symptoms of high Estrogen are lessening.

Pippa so glad to hear you've had a better few days and that putting it on in the morning is working for you. It sounds like the way forward is to just continue to take it slowly now with any changes that you make. Keeping everything crossed that you continue to improve 

Thank you so much Gilla.  Yes daring to feel slightly optimistic - another good day today.   Hope so much all is good for you xx

[Pippa52]

Hi ladies, sorry to jump in, I’ve just posted and saw this post. I have increased form Evorel 75 to 100 on Friday and I have had the most awful time, mainly low mood and horrendous headache! Should I wait for it to see if it settles or go back to 75 although I had terrible anxiety when on the 75? Just can’t seem to settle. Starting 200 utro on the 1st moving to continuous, hoping that may settle things. Any thoughts welcomed, been on HRT for over 3 years and can’t get it right but this is getting worse on the patches,been on patches since March x

Flan I really feel your pain.  Over the past 4 months having been switched from gel to spray to two lots of patches then spray and now back (thankfully) on gel and at long last seeing some light at at the end of the tunnel.  The anxiety is absolutely awful it is so so hard to deal with.  Little sleep as well and the feeling that things will never get better.  All I can say is from personal experience that it does take time to level out - can you get a blood test to see what your oestrogen levels are?  I know that is not the whole answer but it would give you a guide as to whether your oestrogen levels are too high.  I was told once back on the right treatment that suits you it takes 4 - 6 weeks for things to start to really level out properly and 3 months and maybe more to be really ok again but of course women differ in how long some will probably feel loads better by then too.  The most frustrating thing in all of this is tweaking the dose to get what is right for you.  Might be worth asking for a blood test as a bit of a guide for you.  Hope so much you start to feel better soon.  The anxiety is hell to live with .  Hugs xx

[Pippa52]

I think that Pippa, Vintage Fiend and I are all in the same situation in that we don't have to take progesterone. I did experiment two or three weeks ago with a progesterone cream I bought from the States. It was a pretty horrible experience. It made me too warm, foggy and and a bit low so I stopped it after a week. A few days after it had all settled down again thank goodness. I was worried I had done lasting damage! Now from reading up on adding in progesterone it is quite normal to have some pretty unpleasant symptoms for the first few weeks. So I could have carried on I guess. However I don't feel I have resilience to cope with that!! Maybe I'll try again at some later date. I think too that our bodies can make enough progesterone for our needs, I read this somewhere. Have a feeling from cholesterol but please dont quote me on that.... There is a surgical menopause help group in the state's I look at from time to time and I think it was from there I got that info. The general consensus on that website is we are better off without progesterone especially once we have the right levels of oestrogen. I am aware tho that there is another camp that voices the opposite opinion, ie we should take it even though we don't need it. My Meno Dr at Newson Health was definitely anti taking progesterone. It would be good to hear from others if their Meno drs are for or against progesterone for those of us that don't have wombs.

Gnatty that's really interesting re the States.  The gynae consultant that did my hysterectomy put me straight on to Oestrogel only and the Meno consultant I have been seeing advised against progesterone too.  As always though I guess medical opinions will differ. 

[Flan747]

Thanks Gnatty that’s a really interesting article, mine looks like high estrogen although I’ve only just increased so need to give it time I suppose x