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Author Topic: Testosterone  (Read 11479 times)

Erika28

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2021, 01:44:08 PM »

LOESER AA. The rejuvenating and curative effect of a combined androgen-oestrogen tablet in menopausal and ageing women and in other gynaecological ailments and an hypothesis of cancer formation. Gynecol Prat. 1951;2(2):213-22, French transl, 201-12. PMID: 14849890.

Quote
The androgens are therefore as important in the economy of the female
as are the oestrogens. So long as they are in a state of dynamic balance
they will be kept within physiological limits.
This balance is often disturbed in the reproductive phase of a
woman's life, and much more often during the menopause, when all
the other endocrines take part in the change, and more often than in
any previous phase of life, a cancerization in an ageing cell can occur.
KORENCHEVSKI and his co-workers (3) have shown in their fundamental
work how beneficial a pluriglandular treatment in ageing rats
can be. SHORR, PAPANICOLAOU and STIMMEL (4), MARGOLESE (5) and
others treated menopausal women with androgens and oestrogens
simultaneously. BENJAMIN (6) used the same method in gerontotherapy;
REIFENSTEIN and ALBRIGHT (7) saw satisfactory results in
menopausal osteoporosis. The results of these authors were always
better if they administered both sex hormones together instead of
giving them singly. It is the ratio between the two sex hormones on
which the various authors differ.

Quote
Without mentioning the action of the two sex hormones on the
sexual target organs themselves or on other endocrine glands, one can
speak of:
Co-operation of androgens and oestrogens.
(1) Androgens, as oestrogens, favour the storage of water and electrolytes. Androgens
favour sodium. and potassium. retention, oestrogens sodium retention especially.
This retention results in gain of body weight.
(2) Nitrogen retention is favoured by both the hormones and this goes to form
new body protein. Urinary excretion of urea is decreased. Creatine excretion is
depressed.
(3) Both the hormones favour the deposition of calcium in the organic matrix
of bone; oestrogens seem to be more intimately concerned with calcium metabolism
than androgens.
(4) Both hormones can act as brakes to the hypophysis and under certain circumstances
inhibit the pituitary growth hormone.
(5) Androgens, as oestrogens, dilate the capillary bed of the skin and raise the
skin temperature, very welcome during the menopause when vasomotor disturbances
prevail.
(6) Both hormones can produce a withdrawal bleeding during the reproductive
and menopausal age, and stimulate the ageing vaginal epithelium to cornify.
(7) Renal and bladder volume is increased by both hormones.
( 8 ) Both hormones can decrease hypertension.
(9) Both hormones act beneficially on arthritic processes in ageing men and women.
Androgens and oestrogens are not co-operative :
(1) In their action on the haematopoetic system. Androgens have a stimulating
effect on the bone marrow; the number of erythrocytes and hoemoglobin are increased.
Oestrogens have no effect in this respect.
(2) Androgens may rather constrict the capillaries in the endometrium (9).
Oestrogens dilate the endometrial capillary bed.
(3) Androgens can increase libido; oestrogens have no such effect.

Quote
by a combined sex
hormone treatment ageing organs can be brought back in their functions
to a more youthful level, and that abnormal ageing processes can
perhaps be prevented for a longer time.



« Last Edit: October 30, 2021, 01:49:43 PM by Erika28 »
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Erika28

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2021, 01:45:33 PM »

Kupperman, H. S.: Clinical management of the climacteric syndrome. In: Human endocrinology, vol. II, p. 426 (Davis, Philadelphia 1963).


“ESTROGENS AND ANDROGENS. When androgens, in the form of methyl testosterone, were added to the estrogens, physical vigor and joie de vivre became noticeable. Dull personalities seemed to become a bit less so. Occasionally, patients who had been seen for some time modestly whispered about an increase in libido. There were some, however, who did complain of distinct, bothersome clitoral irritation.
The apparent synergism of combined estrogen - androgen therapy permitted us to use smaller doses of each steroid, yet still maintain an equal or greater effect than was accomplished with larger doses of either preparation alone. Vaginal bleeding did not occur. We were constantly alert for masculinizing effects, but there was no evidence of arrhenomimetic phenomena of significance with the doses of methyltestosterone that were employed.
The general degree of improvement in a patient's well being attributable to androgen therapy had a decided effect in ameliorating her anxieties and nervousness which originally were major complaints. Estrogen therapy alone did not seem to be so all - inclusive in effect. The physiologic explanation of the clinical success attributed to the combined steroid medication is perhaps closely related to the enhanced protein anabolism and the maintenance of nitrogen and phosphorus balance that such therapy induced. Osteoporosis of the menopause may thus be better controlled. Although the site of the specific effect of testosterone is unknown, the modus operandi of the estrogens may be ascribed to improved cell permeability. It is reasoned then that, with the basic anabolic property of testosterone and the resultant protein storage, the enhanced cellular activity produced by estrogen increases the potential of the protein anabolic effect of the androgen. The overall effect of estrogen androgen combination is to prevent the depletion of body protein substances as age increases. While beyond the scope of this chapter, one must also give serious consideration to long - range steroid therapy in geriatrics, as proposed by Masters. 19 In his hands this regimen effectively influenced 75 per cent of the geriatric persons treated, with notable physical and psychological improvement. We are entirely in accord with Masters ' concepts and have confirmed his observations. In addition, it has been noted that such long - continued therapy is not only beneficial from the physical and mental point of view, but also appears to be with out danger as far as neoplastic tendencies are concerned. 30

Advantages of Estrogen - Androgen Medication. It should be mentioned that, in the combined use of estrogens and androgens, we do not mean to imply that estrogens can neutralize the undesirable effects of androgens and vice versa. The advantage of their combined use lies in the fact that smaller doses of each one may be administered, so that undesirable side effects due to either steroid are minimized. On the other hand, the combination of the two steroids results in a synergistic effect, approaching the effectiveness of either one alone when administered in higher doses. In other words, if a patient would bleed when 0.05 mg of ethinyl estradiol per day was administered, we could not prevent that bleeding by the addition of 10.0 mg of methyltestosterone. Similarly, if 10.0 mg of methyltestosterone will produce facial hirsutism in a particularly sensitive patient, we cannot inhibit the iatrogenic hypertrichosis with a dose of 0.05 mg. of ethinyl estradiol. However, one can diminish the dose of ethinyl estradiol to 0.02 mg. and administer 5.0 mg. of methyl testosterone simultaneously and achieve a therapeutic effect comparable to that obtained with either 0.05 mg of ethinyl estradiol or 10.0 mg of methyltestosterone alone. In so doing, one diminishes the bleeding propensity which was observed when the 0.05 mg dose of ethinyl estradiol was employed or the hirsutism noted with the 10.0 mg dose of methyl testosterone. An interesting possible advantage of therapy with combined estrogens and androgens is that the estrogens at times may promote fluid accumulation and induce increased nervousness, anxiety, and irritability in certain menopausal patients. The value of estrogens and androgens in these patients would be that the tendency for estrogens to produce enhanced nervousness and retention of fluid is diminished with a smaller dose of estrogens, but the clinical efficacy is maintained by the addition of androgens without diminishing the desired clinical effect.”
“The addition of testosterone pellets to the estrogen was distinctly advantageous in offering the patient a general sense of well being. While the estrogen alone produced a well - controlled and satisfied patient, the combination of androgen and estrogen pellets gave a more effective response; improved spirits were readily apparent, as well as enhanced libido, an important factor in maintaining normal marital relationships. In these cases, we were careful to note any evidence of excessive hair growth.”

The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, Volume 1, Issue 2, 1 February 1941, Pages 162–179, https://doi.org/10.1210/jcem-1-2-162

“the therapeutic effectiveness of testosterone propionate is distinctly inferior to that of the estrogens. And the reason for this is that, in the vast majority of menopausal patients, most of the symptoms are caused by an estrogen deficiency. And, whereas, testosterone propionate may exhibit estromimetic activity, this property becomes manifest only if the hormone is administered in highly concentrated doses for prolonged periods of time. The estrogenic effectiveness of testosterone propionate (as estimated by vaginal smear reactions in estrogen-deficient women) is, per unit of weight, considerably less than 1/1000 that of a-estradiol. Administering testosterone propionate in order to produce the therapeutic effect of estrogens is, therefore, an exceedingly impractical and expensive form of therapy. Obviously the estromimetic action of testosterone propionate is chiefly a matter of academic interest and has little, if any, utility in the practical therapy of the menopause.”
“In the normal, sexually mature woman, gynecogens and androgens are conceived as being in a state of dynamic balance, giving rise to the normal female secondary sex characteristics and normal menstruation. The equilibrium may, however, be upset in one direction or the other. If the gynecogens become dominant, either as a result of a qualitative or quantitative deficiency in androgens, or because of an excessive production of gynecogens, the resulting imbalance would be manifested clinically by menorrhagia, metrorrhagia, pre-menstrual tension, mastopathies and dysmenorrhea, separately or in various combinations. If, on the other hand, the androgen influence were to predominate, the clinical picture would consist of oligomenorrhea or amenorrhea and arrhenomimetic phenomena. It is obvious that in such a dynamic system similar biologic and clinical effects would result from an excess of the one as from a deficiency of the opposing factor. It is tempting to accept this theory of a dynamic gynecogen-androgen balance since it appears, at present, to offer a solution to the riddle of functional gynecologic disorders.”

Endocrine Treatment in General Practice. New York. (1953). Springer Publishing Co., lnc., 1953, pp. 158, 202, 350.

“As a general rule, those climacteric women who have a predominance of tiredness and muscular weakness need testosterone, and those with the purely vasomotor symptoms do best on estrogen alone.”
“Administration of estrogens alone does not always accomplish all the desired effects in the true menopausal syndrome, particularly the desired improvement of mood. Depressions respond almost specifically to androgens such as methyl testosterone.”
“In addition, the androgen has a distinct "tonic" effect in that it tends to improve muscular strength, appetite, and mental outlook.”

Endocrine Therapy in Gynecologic Disorders, Postgraduate Medicine, 14:5, 410-424, DOI: 10.1080/00325481.1953.11711488

“It has been suggested that the combined therapy of estrogen and androgen is more advantageous in controlling the osteoporosis of the climacteric.19 20 Testosterone will augment the protein anabolic effect of estrogens. Also, the addition of testosterone will many times enhance libido when estrogen may fail to do this by itself. Androgens in the doses employed may have a greater ameliorating effect than estrogens alone on the anxiety state and increased nervousness noted in many climacteric patients.”

Greenblatt, R. B., Teran, A.-Z., Barfield, W. E., & Bohler, C. S. (1987). Premenstrual syndrome: What it is and what it is not. Stress Medicine, 3(3), 193–198. https://doi.org/10.1002/smi.2460030219

“in women whose principal complaints were loss of libido, lack of energy and headaches we often implanted one or two pellets of testosterone (75 mg each)”
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pepperminty

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2021, 02:27:28 PM »

Hi Ladies,

I think as said , there probably has not been enough of indeed any  significant studies on T replacement  in women taking oral estrogen.  I am curious as to whether women were generally given oral HRT years ago ( i think they were , by doctors and told take this it will make you feel better ) not really knowing much about it- and then supplemented with T  also.   

I suspect women  were mostly on oral HRT and no one bothered to follow up or study what the effects were with T . I know it is about Free T etc , but not one professional has given me  a straight answer  to what the risks are - if any.

PMXX
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VictoryV

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2021, 06:13:25 PM »

I would say get your testosterone levels checked first and your blood glucose levels (as low blood sugar can produce anxiety and fatigue).  I am post menopausal and started HRT 4 years ago with bioidentical hormones, estradiol and urtrogestan.  Really worked for sleeplessness, depression, bone strength and sex drive.  I went to see Professor Studd's clinic in central London and was prescribed testosterone as well.  Personally I didn't see the point but tried it anyway.  It increased my sex drive further but nothing else so I didn't take it anymore.
Now, four years on I have developed abnormally high testosterone levels and have developed male pattern baldness (temples), my voice has lowered and have mild hirsutism (dark hairs growning under my chin).   Tumours have been excluded but still no wiser as to why.  So just saying, keeping an eye on your testosterone levels is really important.

Ruby, this link mentions naturally higher testosterone readings in women after menopause. It’s a long webinar and I think it’s mentioned around the middle, thought it might be helpful:

https://www.menopause.org.au/hp/ams-webinar/use-of-testosterone-in-women

Victoria☀️
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VictoryV

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2021, 06:22:40 PM »

Erika28.
Thank you for posting all the info, I really appreciate it and it will help me with my next GP apt. Your timing is perfect! Thank you!

Victoria☀️
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Hurdity

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2021, 11:59:56 AM »

Hi Ladies,

I think as said , there probably has not been enough of indeed any  significant studies on T replacement  in women taking oral estrogen.  I am curious as to whether women were generally given oral HRT years ago ( i think they were , by doctors and told take this it will make you feel better ) not really knowing much about it- and then supplemented with T  also.   

I suspect women  were mostly on oral HRT and no one bothered to follow up or study what the effects were with T . I know it is about Free T etc , but not one professional has given me  a straight answer  to what the risks are - if any.

PMXX

There is a useful article here on T therapy in women (from 2013)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378512213000121

One of the references at the end of the article is a review on safety of T replacement but it's a bit out of date now - being from 2012 - but is still interesting. Scroll down to ref 6 - Maclaren and Panay.

Victory V - in terms of talking to your GP your best approach would be to read something recent/current such as I posted above, and look at the NICE Guidelines on menopause from 2015 which made provision for T to be prescribed off licence to women with low sexual desire, as well as the BMS guideline on T replacement - tools for clinicians which has probably already been posted on this thread but if not: https://thebms.org.uk/publications/tools-for-clinicians/testosterone-replacement-in-menopause/ or the information and links on this website here: https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/testosterone.php

pepperminty - re the risks of using oral HRT with Testosterone - I'm not sure what risks you are thinking of? I presume for example that say one was taking a high dose of oral oestrogen which led to high concentrations of SHBG, what are the consequences of this when you then take testosterone - so that levels are apparently high even though free T is low? ie what are the consequences of having that much T in the system even if the Free Androgen Index (FAI) is low? I think though that the recommendation to keep (total) T levels within the normal physiological range for women should prevent some concerns on that score (irresepctive of the FAI)?

Just thinking aloud here!

Nicky LD - how are you getting on - would be good to hear the outcome of your tests and change to transdermal HRT?

Hurdity x
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pepperminty

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2021, 05:51:40 PM »

Hi Ladies,

I think as said , there probably has not been enough of indeed any  significant studies on T replacement  in women taking oral estrogen.  I am curious as to whether women were generally given oral HRT years ago ( i think they were , by doctors and told take this it will make you feel better ) not really knowing much about it- and then supplemented with T  also.   

I suspect women  were mostly on oral HRT and no one bothered to follow up or study what the effects were with T . I know it is about Free T etc , but not one professional has given me  a straight answer  to what the risks are - if any.

PMXX

There is a useful article here on T therapy in women (from 2013)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378512213000121

One of the references at the end of the article is a review on safety of T replacement but it's a bit out of date now - being from 2012 - but is still interesting. Scroll down to ref 6 - Maclaren and Panay.

Victory V - in terms of talking to your GP your best approach would be to read something recent/current such as I posted above, and look at the NICE Guidelines on menopause from 2015 which made provision for T to be prescribed off licence to women with low sexual desire, as well as the BMS guideline on T replacement - tools for clinicians which has probably already been posted on this thread but if not: https://thebms.org.uk/publications/tools-for-clinicians/testosterone-replacement-in-menopause/ or the information and links on this website here: https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/testosterone.php

pepperminty - re the risks of using oral HRT with Testosterone - I'm not sure what risks you are thinking of? I presume for example that say one was taking a high dose of oral oestrogen which led to high concentrations of SHBG, what are the consequences of this when you then take testosterone - so that levels are apparently high even though free T is low? ie what are the consequences of having that much T in the system even if the Free Androgen Index (FAI) is low? I think though that the recommendation to keep (total) T levels within the normal physiological range for women should prevent some concerns on that score (irresepctive of the FAI)?

Just thinking aloud here!

Nicky LD - how are you getting on - would be good to hear the outcome of your tests and change to transdermal HRT?

Hurdity x


Hi Hurdity,

thanks - the article above from 2013 is interesting - i read it quickly , but it seems to indicate that the majority of studies were done with oral HRT. Interesting.
 I suppose the risks I'm referring to are the ones where the SHBG is high and therefore free T cannot be calculated. Although overall T can. I am wondering if SHBG is high does this have an adverse effect on taking T and if so how?  As with a high SHBG less free T is available. Does this effect the replacement T getting in to do its job?

As the bioavailable testosterone is primarily determined by SHBG levels and is therefore highly susceptible to the many factors that affect SHBG levels, including obesity or exogenous estrogens. "

From what I understand you are saying is the total T should be in range even if SHBG is high and free T not calculable?

PMXX
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NickyLD

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2021, 07:27:58 PM »

Hi All,

Thought I’d update you on my doctors appointments.

Changed to transdermal HRT (had one blood test) after 2mg oral HRT and another four weeks later. Doctors called me today and said estrogen was low and that I should increase dose of oestradiol 80mg gel from two pumps per day to four. I asked what the levels of estrogen were and she said 250 which was low.  Is that the case? Four pumps per day seems a lot but I just felt like I didn’t have enough time to question further? Any words of wisdom? She said some people don’t absorb HRT and that could be a reason for tiredness. I’m a bit baffled. I get no hot flushes so would have thought that would have been a telling symptom at least but that’s now fine…. If anything I’m always freezing cold. Any advice gratefully received
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sheila99

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2021, 09:55:13 PM »

Thyroid?
 I think 250 is low. Many women need 4 pumps to control symptoms, specialist told me up to 6. Might be wise to increase to 3 then 4 later on if you feel you need it.
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Hurdity

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2021, 09:32:11 AM »

hi there - I would not say that 250 pmol/l is low. It is a healthy level for someone taking hRT but may be too low for some women. I doubt mine have been higher than this all the time I've been taking it - well maybe a bit more now since I changed to Evorel?  They've only been measured a couple of times and yes it is how you feel that is more important and yes hot flushes and sweats are the most telling indicator symptom. However the dose that leads to the absence of these could be said to be the minimum dose necessary - and maybe all that many women need because other symptoms are improved at the same time.

Is this an NHS doc or private clinic? I know some private meno docs like women to have much higher oestrogen levels eg 300-400 pmol/l but I wouldn't necessarily say this should be a blanket recommendation - as long as you have achieved the minimum to protect against osteoporosis and to eliminate flushes and sweats. Far be it from me to suggest going against expert opinion!!

For other women, they need more than the minimum to have that feel good factor back (sometimes much more) - although we can't expect to feel as good as we did when fertile....maybe some would disagree! Some women also take very high doses when still fertile, due to reproductive depression.

If you are tired and always feeling freezing cold that points to a metabolic problem notably thyroid - especially if you are also putting on weight - though I dont know much about this ( Wrensong does though...).

Personally I would not increase your oestrogen without having this investigated properly first.

I cant see your posts about testosterone as I write this so can't remember if you started taking this but it hasn't made a difference?

Hurdity x

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NickyLD

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2021, 12:37:15 PM »

Hi Hurdity,

I think you are probably much more knowledgeable that most GP's, sadly.  It's not their fault, but there is such a misunderstanding which I am sure you are well aware of too! 

I've not put on weight, in fact I've lost weight and kept it off in the last few years.  Main symptoms are tiredness, very very dry eyes and I often wonder if it's the dry eyes that is making me feel tired IYKWIM and I'm always cold.  My moods are up and down but I've had that for so long as I think that's normal. I've yet to meet a woman without fluctuating moods!  Anxiety really does come and go too, some days it's much worse than other days.   

I have no idea if this is the new normal or if things can be improved? I guess with decreasing hormones I'm not going to feel as sparkly as I did when I was 20!  I might up the pump to 3 and see how I go.  If it's too much, what side effects should I be on the look out for? Thank you so much, your advice is always so valuable and helpful.  Testosterone was ruled out completely. 
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Marchlove

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2021, 10:01:21 PM »

Hi Ladies,

I think as said , there probably has not been enough of indeed any  significant studies on T replacement  in women taking oral estrogen.  I am curious as to whether women were generally given oral HRT years ago ( i think they were , by doctors and told take this it will make you feel better ) not really knowing much about it- and then supplemented with T  also.   

I suspect women  were mostly on oral HRT and no one bothered to follow up or study what the effects were with T . I know it is about Free T etc , but not one professional has given me  a straight answer  to what the risks are - if any.

PMXX

There is a useful article here on T therapy in women (from 2013)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378512213000121

One of the references at the end of the article is a review on safety of T replacement but it's a bit out of date now - being from 2012 - but is still interesting. Scroll down to ref 6 - Maclaren and Panay.

Victory V - in terms of talking to your GP your best approach would be to read something recent/current such as I posted above, and look at the NICE Guidelines on menopause from 2015 which made provision for T to be prescribed off licence to women with low sexual desire, as well as the BMS guideline on T replacement - tools for clinicians which has probably already been posted on this thread but if not: https://thebms.org.uk/publications/tools-for-clinicians/testosterone-replacement-in-menopause/ or the information and links on this website here: https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/testosterone.php

pepperminty - re the risks of using oral HRT with Testosterone - I'm not sure what risks you are thinking of? I presume for example that say one was taking a high dose of oral oestrogen which led to high concentrations of SHBG, what are the consequences of this when you then take testosterone - so that levels are apparently high even though free T is low? ie what are the consequences of having that much T in the system even if the Free Androgen Index (FAI) is low? I think though that the recommendation to keep (total) T levels within the normal physiological range for women should prevent some concerns on that score (irresepctive of the FAI)?

Just thinking aloud here!

Nicky LD - how are you getting on - would be good to hear the outcome of your tests and change to transdermal HRT?

Hurdity x

Hurdity- The link you posted for 2013 and T  therapy is by Rebecca Glaser. She is very well respected and written many studies on Testosterone therapy for women. Her work came about as a result of treating breast cancer survivors who couldn’t have estrogen hrt and were also taking aromatase inhibitors and consequently suffering from severe menopause symptoms.
Her work over two decades made her realise that menopause symptoms could be treated with testosterone mono therapy.
There are about 5 studies done by her and they make interesting reading.
Unfortunately though, this can, for many many reasons, only be achieved by implants.
This is a route many women take in the states and is very successful under the right practitioner.
How could this ever be achieved cost effectively in the UK!
My view is that the cost to the nhs for the treatment of menopausal women in so VERY many ways, by FAR exceeds the cost of 3 implants a year, expertly trained practitioners and
some other support systems.
Unfortunately none of this is likely to happen in the short term but in the meantime I would encourage individual research into Rebecca Glaser’s work.  We owe it to future generations to be as informed as we can. That’s what helps me keep going forward like all you dear people. xx
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NickyLD

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2021, 08:17:11 AM »

The increase to four pumps has made me feel really really sick and my boobs are so sore, so much so I’ve only had one extra dose and won’t again. My full bloods seemed to be fine so that would rule out thyroid. I’m back to square one thinking testoesteone would help yet that’s not an option presumably because that level was normal, so guess I have to feel like this forever! I could honestly cry!
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Gnatty

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2021, 09:47:25 AM »

Why don't you try increasing really really slowly to avoid initial start up effects. Eg go up by one half of a pump for a week or two then another half?
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Marchlove

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2021, 10:30:51 AM »

NickyLD. So sorry your feeling grim.
The always cold can be either thyroid or adrenal issues. I’ll send a link in a minute.
What were you thyroid test results, did they do the full panel? Hopefully Wrensong will be along if you post your results.
The testosterone tests are very unreliable and you have to go by symptoms. Libido, energy etc. Dry eyes are linked to testosterone deficiency. Will see if I can find the article xx
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