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[Uptick]

I've just read the thread from that first link... exactly what I've thought. The articles are at least 8 years old and a lot of new information is available. The OP (I'm not registered and can't see their names) apparently has a scientific background but didn't reply to posts questioning the point of those links, which tell just one side of a very complex story. One member is/was on progesterone cream (compounded), another on estradiol/testosterone sublingual and another was using Prometrium (same as Utrogestan) on her legs!! Some of them had hysterectomy and are using progesterone to counteract 'estrogen dominance', which is a non-scientific notion that has spread like wildfire. Some posters are clearly on other drugs and they don't seem to think about normal drug interactions and just focus on cross tolerance and GABA receptors. One poster has posted a link to a study that contradicts this theory and there's no reply from the OP...

Off to read the other one, but I'm afraid it will just confirm that these discussions are dangerous, because there seems to be a lot of 'I did this, I felt that' and the ultimate truth is everyone is different regarding hormones and drugs.




No, we're not being lied to...They are identical to our own hormones, being bio or body identical has nothing to do with being 'natural', they are synthesised in manufacturing facilities, like all drugs. Wikipedia is an easy reading, it's all there.

I understand that Utrogestan had a sedative effect on you, but it happens to almost everyone who takes it, it's not necessarily due to 'derailing GABA' because you take Valium... I've become suicidal on Utro, that's why I've decided to stop HRT and research to know what's my best option. And I don't take any other drugs.

Maybe 100mg will be enough now you have been on prog for years... things change.

I don't think reducing the gel will stop the bleeding, but you can try, response to hormones is very individual.

Regarding medication or psychotherapy for anxiety issues, I know many women don't get relief from HRT so it's clear that other causes must be investigated.

I can't comment on other people's experience, because everyone is different. Many factors contribute to hormone imbalance (and I'm talking about all hormones, not just estradiol, prog and testo).

If you truly believe that progesterone cross tolerance with Valium is your real problem, the rational thing to do is to taper off progesterone. Unfortunately Utrogestan is not available in alternative doses, so the only way is to stop taking it vaginally.

You don't want your doctors to know that you're still having unscheduled bleeding because you are afraid they will change your HRT regime and you are absolutely certain this will affect your GABA receptors and you will go nuts. There's a lot of assumptions, but let's pretend you're absolutely right, what difference will it make if you stop bleeding and then go to the doctors? Are you going to have a hysteroscopy? Well, that's what you're going to have if you go now...

I think your only options, if you're really not sharing this with any doctor, is to wait for the bleeding to stop (how long? no idea) or decrease the gel, but you might end up having hot flushes and sweats again. So, what's the point? If you don't bleed but you also don't sleep your anxiety will ramp up.

I understand you are asking for help because you don't know what to do, but you have to admit you are imposing conditions that are hard for anyone with a conscience to agree with, refusing to share your symptoms with a doctor and assuming that they are absolutely useless regarding hormones and sedatives. You must be able to talk to a decent doctor, you could ask to have a video chat with a different doctor and blame it on Covid...

[Dandelion]

I've just read the thread from that first link... exactly what I've thought. The articles are at least 8 years old and a lot of new information is available. The OP (I'm not registered and can't see their names) apparently has a scientific background but didn't reply to posts questioning the point of those links, which tell just one side of a very complex story. One member is/was on progesterone cream (compounded), another on estradiol/testosterone sublingual and another was using Prometrium (same as Utrogestan) on her legs!! Some of them had hysterectomy and are using progesterone to counteract 'estrogen dominance', which is a non-scientific notion that has spread like wildfire. Some posters are clearly on other drugs and they don't seem to think about normal drug interactions and just focus on cross tolerance and GABA receptors. One poster has posted a link to a study that contradicts this theory and there's no reply from the OP...

Off to read the other one, but I'm afraid it will just confirm that these discussions are dangerous, because there seems to be a lot of 'I did this, I felt that' and the ultimate truth is everyone is different regarding hormones and drugs.




No, we're not being lied to...They are identical to our own hormones, being bio or body identical has nothing to do with being 'natural', they are synthesised in manufacturing facilities, like all drugs. Wikipedia is an easy reading, it's all there.

I understand that Utrogestan had a sedative effect on you, but it happens to almost everyone who takes it, it's not necessarily due to 'derailing GABA' because you take Valium... I've become suicidal on Utro, that's why I've decided to stop HRT and research to know what's my best option. And I don't take any other drugs.

Maybe 100mg will be enough now you have been on prog for years... things change.

I don't think reducing the gel will stop the bleeding, but you can try, response to hormones is very individual.

Regarding medication or psychotherapy for anxiety issues, I know many women don't get relief from HRT so it's clear that other causes must be investigated.

I can't comment on other people's experience, because everyone is different. Many factors contribute to hormone imbalance (and I'm talking about all hormones, not just estradiol, prog and testo).

If you truly believe that progesterone cross tolerance with Valium is your real problem, the rational thing to do is to taper off progesterone. Unfortunately Utrogestan is not available in alternative doses, so the only way is to stop taking it vaginally.

You don't want your doctors to know that you're still having unscheduled bleeding because you are afraid they will change your HRT regime and you are absolutely certain this will affect your GABA receptors and you will go nuts. There's a lot of assumptions, but let's pretend you're absolutely right, what difference will it make if you stop bleeding and then go to the doctors? Are you going to have a hysteroscopy? Well, that's what you're going to have if you go now...

I think your only options, if you're really not sharing this with any doctor, is to wait for the bleeding to stop (how long? no idea) or decrease the gel, but you might end up having hot flushes and sweats again. So, what's the point? If you don't bleed but you also don't sleep your anxiety will ramp up.

I understand you are asking for help because you don't know what to do, but you have to admit you are imposing conditions that are hard for anyone with a conscience to agree with, refusing to share your symptoms with a doctor and assuming that they are absolutely useless regarding hormones and sedatives. You must be able to talk to a decent doctor, you could ask to have a video chat with a different doctor and blame it on Covid...

Hi Uptick
Can't say how much I appreciate your replies. I have a lot of questions and put them in bold for your convenience, the non bolded text is relevant facts I hope will help inform you of my concerns and situation.

I've just read the thread from that first link... exactly what I've thought. The articles are at least 8 years old and a lot of new information is available. The OP (I'm not registered and can't see their names) apparently has a scientific background but didn't reply to posts questioning the point of those links, which tell just one side of a very complex story.

I didn't send you all the threads, OP was rushed to hospital, I don't know if that is in the thread you sent. Doctors were baffled. She talks about HPA axis and all sorts, but that might not be in the thread as I just posted you links, I read them a few years ago.

The lady I met on there who messaged me, who cut her prescribed bio identical cream was not on any other drugs. She was too ill to message me again.

I can post other links of women who have been made very ill. Women who have never been benzo dependent can come off progesterone with no problems, but women who have been dependent on Benzes cannot due to the cross tolerance with the allopregnanolone.

I used to know a woman who could not taper and couldn't figure out why, she later found out that it was due to her combi birth control pill, containing both oestrogen and progesterone.

I don't think there is such a thing as oestrogen dominance.

Some posters are clearly on other drugs and they don't seem to think about normal drug interactions and just focus on cross tolerance and GABA receptors. One poster has posted a link to a study that contradicts this theory and there's no reply from the OP...

Sorry I only sent you two links, I didn't know how you were for time, the OP has posted more.

No, we're not being lied to...They are identical to our own hormones, being bio or body identical has nothing to do with being 'natural', they are synthesised in manufacturing facilities, like all drugs.

It's because you said semi-synthetic that made me think they were not natural. Are they still hazardous to aquatic life?

I know Utrogestan sedation happens to everyone. I was poor at wording my post. I don't think my existing dose is derailing my GABA (e.g. sending me mental like when I had rages on the days I wasn't taking it while on sequins)
The valium just complicates things because it is cross tolerant to the allopregnanolone.

I am so sorry to hear you became suicidal on utro, it gave me no problems until six months after I decided to take it daily.

Maybe 100mg will be enough now you have been on prog for years... things change.

You know more than me, but the gynaecologist added the extra utro to stop the bleeding, I thought utro or prog stopped bleeding.

Why am I getting tender breasts just like when I was having periods before peri? This must be hormonal?

I don't think reducing the gel will stop the bleeding, but you can try, response to hormones is very individual.

Why don't you think the bleeding will stop? I mean no disrespect, it's just that my GP reduced my patch from 100mcg to 75mcg to stop it, it worked for a few months.

I've had allsorts of antidepressants and they are just toxic, they all have bad side effects and their own withdrawal symptoms. I smashed my head with a thick glass when I came off trazodone and that was tapering it and not cold turkey.

The rational thing to do is to taper off progesterone. How do I do that with capsules? Also without it, the oestrogen will not be opposed. You have to taper off Benzodiazepines in tiny doses, cutting the vaginal will be like taking off a big dose of valium. Elisabeth Vliet an expert on these things says progesterone is like klonopin a much stronger pill than valium. 

You don't want your doctors to know that you're still having unscheduled bleeding because you are afraid they will change your HRT regime and you are absolutely certain this will affect your GABA receptors and you will go nuts.

The evidence is that when I was addicted to valium I did start to go nuts, head butting things, breaking things when I had my break from sequi progesterone.

There's a lot of assumptions, but let's pretend you're absolutely right, what difference will it make if you stop bleeding and then go to the doctors? Are you going to have a hysteroscopy? Well, that's what you're going to have if you go now...

I already had a hysteroscopy in January 2019 and they found nothing.
Won't they give me a trans vaginal ultrasound scan?

I think your only options, if you're really not sharing this with any doctor, is to wait for the bleeding to stop (how long? no idea) or decrease the gel, but you might end up having hot flushes and sweats again. So, what's the point? If you don't bleed but you also don't sleep your anxiety will ramp up.

I wish I had the courage to go to the doctor, but what doctor will have the time to read the long and complex note with bullet points that I will have to give them?
Sorry I am confused, why will I not sleep if the bleeding stops?

Sorry for all of the questions.
Thanks again and sorry the prog made you suicidal.
I never had Pre menstrual syndrome when I was young, just the odd painful period as a teen.

[Uptick]

Hello again, sorry for not quoting you, am on iPhone, hard to type on a little screen.

Most drugs are hazardous to aquatic (and general) life. Progestins contribution in HRT products is minimal compared to contraceptives (huge doses).

Tender breasts might be from too much estradiol. I think you are going through the menopause transition, your ovaries are still functioning, albeit erratically, and this might be contributing to the bleeding and tender breasts.

I never said the bleeding won't stop, because there's no way of knowing that with certainty. Anything can happen. If you decide to decrease the patch dose it might stop the bleeding, but if hot flushes and sweats return you will be back to square one.

You have said your doctor doesn't think transvaginal US scan is reliable for endometrial measurement, so I think they will probably perform a hysteroscopy.

If your doctors don't have time to read a patient's medical history you can complain about them to the NHS.

It's not lack of bleeding that will disrupt your sleep, it's returning hot flushes and sweats from decreasing the dose of estradiol. Just a thought, maybe you don't need a high dose of estradiol anyway, because I think you're not postmenopausal yet, you're still producing your own oestrogen.

I've never had PMS either, my own progesterone didn't cause me any problems, Utrogestan did. I think the continuous dose is the problem.

[Dandelion]

Hello again, sorry for not quoting you, am on iPhone, hard to type on a little screen.

Most drugs are hazardous to aquatic (and general) life. Progestins contribution in HRT products is minimal compared to contraceptives (huge doses).

Tender breasts might be from too much estradiol. I think you are going through the menopause transition, your ovaries are still functioning, albeit erratically, and this might be contributing to the bleeding and tender breasts.

I never said the bleeding won't stop, because there's no way of knowing that with certainty. Anything can happen. If you decide to decrease the patch dose it might stop the bleeding, but if hot flushes and sweats return you will be back to square one.

You have said your doctor doesn't think transvaginal US scan is reliable for endometrial measurement, so I think they will probably perform a hysteroscopy.

If your doctors don't have time to read a patient's medical history you can complain about them to the NHS.

It's not lack of bleeding that will disrupt your sleep, it's returning hot flushes and sweats from decreasing the dose of estradiol. Just a thought, maybe you don't need a high dose of estradiol anyway, because I think you're not postmenopausal yet, you're still producing your own oestrogen.

I've never had PMS either, my own progesterone didn't cause me any problems, Utrogestan did. I think the continuous dose is the problem.

Hi Uptick

Most drugs are hazardous to aquatic (and general) life. Progestins contribution in HRT products is minimal compared to contraceptives (huge doses).

Oh no, I believe in Karma, I am polluting and messing up lots of little aquatic creatures with my valium and all of the other toxins I have taken.

I forgot, I meant to ask you a question from your previous post

You have changed sequential to continuous regime, you have changed oral to vaginal and now you're having both routes. Many things have changed, and time is also a factor when considering the effect of continuous exogenous progesterone, not only progesterone receptors but also oestrogen receptors can be up or down-regulated.

When you say time is a factor, does that spell bad news for me in any way?
I'm worried I've messed up my CNS and endocrine system.

I see that you say tender breasts are from too much estradiol, I had a bad night sweat last night, I am not doubting you but am confused, as sweats mean not enough eostraiol?

I'm 54 years old, isn't 54 classed as post meno?

I take gel now not patches, sorry for not being clear on this.

They already performed a hysteroscopy in January 2019 and found nothing. I don't understand why TVU scans are unreliable.

I hear you when you say the conintuous dose is the problem, but any breaks in progesterone will be akin to missing large doses of valium and put me at risk of head butting things again, head injury, breaking things, etc.

[Uptick]

No, what I meant by time is a factor is that our response to hormones can change over time because the body tries to adjust itself to the new hormonal internal environment. Same thing applies to many drugs, including benzos, this is what happens in tolerance state.

Tender breasts are a well known side effect of estradiol. In fact, that's why women have boobs in the first place. Your sweats might be from a different source, including benzo tapering. Hot flushes are more typical of low estradiol levels. Sweats occur in many different conditions.

We've already discussed this, age is not a good thing to define menopause, 54 is just an average age. You can be perimenopausal at 54.

I don't know why your doctor said TVS is unreliable, but if she thinks so she won't give you one, right?

I know you can't take Utro sequentially. I wouldn't either. The fluctuations can be bad if you're sensitive to them. Even if you had no problems when you were still cycling that doesn't mean you won't react to them now. I guess that's why menopause is called 'The Change'. On the other hand, taking it continuously have its own issues. There's no easy way out of it.

[Dandelion]

No, what I meant by time is a factor is that our response to hormones can change over time because the body tries to adjust itself to the new hormonal internal environment. Same thing applies to many drugs, including benzos, this is what happens in tolerance state.

Tender breasts are a well known side effect of estradiol. In fact, that's why women have boobs in the first place. Your sweats might be from a different source, including benzo tapering. Hot flushes are more typical of low estradiol levels. Sweats occur in many different conditions.

We've already discussed this, age is not a good thing to define menopause, 54 is just an average age. You can be perimenopausal at 54.

I don't know why your doctor said TVS is unreliable, but if she thinks so she won't give you one, right?

I know you can't take Utro sequentially. I wouldn't either. The fluctuations can be bad if you're sensitive to them. Even if you had no problems when you were still cycling that doesn't mean you won't react to them now. I guess that's why menopause is called 'The Change'. On the other hand, taking it continuously have its own issues. There's no easy way out of it.

Hi Uptick

As a microbiologist you seem very knowledgeable about pharmacology, is it part of your training?
It's all very worrying, mucking about with valium and progesterone
messing up my nervous system
Thanks for explaining the time thing.
The sweats increased each time I reduced my gel.
I thought I wouldn't need the fan on last night as windows were open it wasn't so warm but woke up with upper body sweaty.
With Benzes, you sweat all over your body.
I see, yes, we did discuss the age thing, sorry, so did Sage.
Can a GP refuse to send me for TUV if I am bleeding, what is the point of putting a woman though a painful hysteroscopy like me with a stenosed crevix.
When you say taking it coninuously has it's own issues, what do you mean, not just for me but what other women have had problems taking it conti?
I was fine for 6 months on daily prog, Dr Currie and my Gynae said its ok.

[CLKD]

The GP told me that transvaginal ultrasounds are no longer reliable in determining womb lining thickness. when you mentioned this previously you were advised to change your GP 

Peri-menopause are the years prior to the cessation of monthly periods.  These months/years can throw up all kinds of weird symptoms and may increase depression and anxiety.  One expects to have less and less monthly bleeds: which can be bright red, pale pink, brown ...... and some have hot flushes.  Not everyone has the latter, I had cold flushes for 3 months with itchy skin at night.

Menopause: Literally the last monthly bleed.  We often don't know when our last period happened until 12-15 months afterwards.  I didn't realise until at least 12 months after mine had stopped.  Some symptoms; flushes, dry skin etc.; may continue as the ovaries can keep giving out spurts of oestrogen.  Fortuanately I had no problems other than vaginal atrophy once I had stopped regular periods.

Girls can be in menopause from age 11 - some have 1/2 periods then nowt, others don't bleed.  Ever.  There is a mean age of 54 but some ladies have 'early' menopause from about 34 years, others still bleed into their 60s.  Each lady is an individual.  It is unlikely that any anti depressant or anti anxiety medication will have any contra indication with HRT. 

It's The Change - does what it says on the tin ;-)

[Dandelion]

The GP told me that transvaginal ultrasounds are no longer reliable in determining womb lining thickness. when you mentioned this previously you were advised to change your GP 

Peri-menopause are the years prior to the cessation of monthly periods.  These months/years can throw up all kinds of weird symptoms and may increase depression and anxiety.  One expects to have less and less monthly bleeds: which can be bright red, pale pink, brown ...... and some have hot flushes.  Not everyone has the latter, I had cold flushes for 3 months with itchy skin at night.

Menopause: Literally the last monthly bleed.  We often don't know when our last period happened until 12-15 months afterwards.  I didn't realise until at least 12 months after mine had stopped.  Some symptoms; flushes, dry skin etc.; may continue as the ovaries can keep giving out spurts of oestrogen.  Fortuanately I had no problems other than vaginal atrophy once I had stopped regular periods.

Girls can be in menopause from age 11 - some have 1/2 periods then nowt, others don't bleed.  Ever.  There is a mean age of 54 but some ladies have 'early' menopause from about 34 years, others still bleed into their 60s.  Each lady is an individual.  It is unlikely that any anti depressant or anti anxiety medication will have any contra indication with HRT. 

It's The Change - does what it says on the tin ;-)

Hi CKLD

The GP told me that transvaginal ultrasounds are no longer reliable in determining womb lining thickness. when you mentioned this previously you were advised to change your GP 

In our surgery we don't get one GP we just ring and see whoever is available.
Dr Currie had never heard that TVU's are unreliable.
I'm not worried about contra-indications with AD's and HRT I have tried loads of them, they have bad side effects and are a beggar to come off, I smashed a glass on my head after weaning slowly off one. They feel toxic.

[CLKD]

I think it's the same in most surgeries.  Unless 1 is prepared to wait 2-3 weeks for the GP of choice which I do as I plan well ahead.  In an emergency or for non-specific problems, I see who is on or talk to the Pharmacist attached to the Surgerical Team.

If Dr Currie hasn't heard that scans are unreliable, why trust a GP - they are after all General Practitioners for a reason 

Which symptom do you need to solve first ?  I take anti-depressant and anti-anxiety medications and have never been advised that HRT is contra-indicative.  It's itchiness that aggravates my skin the most but my GP noticed the VA symptoms and prescribed accordingly.  As long as I keep up with regular treatment, that is in the main, sorted :-)

[Dandelion]

I think it's the same in most surgeries.  Unless 1 is prepared to wait 2-3 weeks for the GP of choice which I do as I plan well ahead.  In an emergency or for non-specific problems, I see who is on or talk to the Pharmacist attached to the Surgerical Team.

If Dr Currie hasn't heard that scans are unreliable, why trust a GP - they are after all General Practitioners for a reason 

Which symptom do you need to solve first ?  I take anti-depressant and anti-anxiety medications and have never been advised that HRT is contra-indicative.  It's itchiness that aggravates my skin the most but my GP noticed the VA symptoms and prescribed accordingly.  As long as I keep up with regular treatment, that is in the main, sorted :-)

Hi it's not an emergency thankfully.

Yeah re GP, I take you point, I dunno where GP got her information that TUV's are unreliable for womb thickness.
In any case, as I am bleeding, I should think the bleeding would be thinning my womb lining.

What symptoms do I need to solve first, the bleeding.
I am weaning off the valium, so hopefully that will go ok.
Non addictive AD and AA drugs are not contra-indicated, uptick posted from the utro medical information sheet that valium can cause unscheduled bleeding.

[Uptick]

No, I had only a brief training in pharmacology, menopause has been my drive for doing more research in this area, because I'm hypersensitive to drugs (and light, noise, smell, weather changes, pollens, dust mites, etc) and have reacted badly on my first attempt on HRT.

If you think the sweats are definitely linked to reducing estradiol I think it confirms that you're having fluctuations, otherwise you'd be having sweats all the time. Just a thought, have you been on Oestrogel, Oestrodose or both?

I don't think a GP can refuse to send you for a TVS but she or he could argue that multiple bleeding events have to be addressed by hysteroscopy and probably a biopsy. If you have anxiety issues you have the right to ask for a GA.

I think many women do well on continuous Utrogestan but they probably don't post on forums like this. I know many who have a hell of a time on conti Utro and had to stop it or go sequential, but everyone reacts in a different way.

Are you going to send me more links to the benzo forum?

[Dandelion]

No, I had only a brief training on pharmacology, menopause has been my drive for doing more research in this area, because I'm hypersensitive to drugs (and light, noise, smell, weather changes, pollens, dust mites, etc) and have reacted badly on my first attempt on HRT.

If you think the sweats are definitely linked to reducing estradiol I think it confirms that you're having fluctuations, otherwise you'd be having sweats all the time. Just a thought, have you been on Oestrogel, Oestrodose or both?

I don't think a GP can refuse to send you for a TVS but she or he could argue that multiple bleeding events have to be addressed by hysteroscopy and probably a biopsy. If you have anxiety issues you have the right to ask for a GA.

I think many women do well on continuous Utrogestan but they probably don't post on forums like this. I know many who have a hell of a time on conti Utro and had to stop it or go sequential, but everyone reacts in a different way.

Hi Uptick
Thanks for giving me info re your training and knowledge gained.
Sorry to hear you are hypersensitive to things, I have sensory problems, loud noises bad smells, I am being tested for autism in October.

I need a fan on, now it's getting colder I put it on when it warms up, too cold at bedtime.
In summer, I sweated like a pig.

I got oestrodose prescribed but never wanted to use it so I have only used oestrogen bought privately at an MHRA authorised pharmacy.

I already had a hysteroscopy and biopsy in January 2019, thankfully found no problems.
I can't see how they would do a hysteroscopy awake with a stenosed crevix, the gynaecologist couldn't even get a thin implement thinner than a straw in.
Thanks for the info regarding conti/sequi.

[Uptick]

Sorry, I've edited my post. Are you going to send me more links to the benzo forum?

Yes I know you had a hysteroscopy in Jan 2019 but it's been a while and you're still bleeding, so a TVS wouldn't give them all the answers. If your cervix is almost closed you will be offered a GA.

Why are you buying Oestrogel privately?

[Dandelion]

Sorry, I've edited my post. Are you going to send me more links to the benzo forum?

Yes I know you had a hysteroscopy in Jan 2019 but it's been a while and you're still bleeding, so a TVS wouldn't give them all the answers. If your cervix is almost closed you will be offered a GA.

Why are you buying Oestrogel privately?

I'm buying oestrogel privately as oestrodose is the only thing on offer here.
The pharmacy also switch brands without telling me, they did it with my valium.

I will send you more links to the benzo forum, but do you mind if I wait as I am currently really anxious, and trying to find something to ease the anxiety like movies or something? Thinking about this plus all of the other rubbish problems is just brimming my anxiety cup over the top.

Yeah, cervix really closed, gynaecologist couldn't get a mm thick implement in there, it was like this thick ll

I still would rather have a scan, I have nobody to take me to hospital and back for hysteroscopy or look after me afterwards.

[CLKD]

The question here is why did the Gynaecologist not offer a GA immediately for reassurance. I've never known a scheduled examination not to take place once the appt. has been arranged 

What does of Valium do you take and how often? It took me 9 weeks to wean off an Anti-depressant but 3 days to stop Valium when it didn't agree with me 

GP surgeries buy the cheapest product offered - it happens with my ADs often but I've never had any ill effects so stopped looking for any  .  Same with statins .......... as long as the main ingredient is the same and as long as the fillers don't affect me, then I'm good to go.  Any ill effects from drugs since 1988 I have stopped taking within days. 

Hopefully you will find a way through.