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[Marchlove]

Here is one Dutch test article, can’t find the one I was looking for.
Not sure how old the article is as no date.

https://dutchtest.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Transdermal-Progesterone-Best-Practice-and-Literature-Review-REF121019.pdf

[CrispyChick]

Thanks March love.

I'm losing the will... That article says the opposite of your other one  . They all agree that transdernal P shows highly in saliva and finger **** and not in serum... But all disagree on how you use the info. 

Man alive!!! That article says u can't use either 

I'll certainly be asking my clinic about this.

Then I'll go write a PhD about it 🤣🤣🤣🤣.

[Blue Kingfisher]

I found this discrepancy to be exactly the same for oestrogen levels. I measured low in blood serum, high in saliva. Not helpful when you have conflicting advice is it. The truth is, you have to try and find out what works for you & what doesn’t. But, it’s very confusing trying to navigate through the labyrinth!

[Marchlove]

Oh please do CrispyChick, ask your clinic and write a thesis please!!!
I’m wondering if the endocrine/hormone system should be taught at school as a completely standalone subject to GCSE!
By starting at a young age by the time they reach peri menopause they will have it all sussed and not be in the situation we have all found ourselves.
I think we should start a petition

[Blue Kingfisher]

Just reporting in to say I’m on day 4 of no progesterone and I feel soooo much better! Not brilliant but my goodness much better. I’m expecting to nose dive any day now as yet to have a bleed but it’s been fantastic to feel more like me & have my sense of humour back. I was on lozenges for a good 5 months so not for me on a conti regime but gave it a good try - my body can’t tolerate the progesterone this much (10mg every night).

It’s sequi for me with lozenges or off HRT or hysterectomy.

Hysterectomy very, very last option!

Blue x

[Perinowpost]

I’m in the same camp as you Blue, but I don’t want to come off hrt and hysterectomy would be a last resort x

[Blue Kingfisher]

I think I’ve tried pretty much all options now from tablets to pessaries from creams to coils. Lozenges were the most tolerable but I can’t tolerate even a low dose on a conti regime.

 Perinowpost, what types have you tried? Sorry you are also in this highly intolerant gang, it isn’t much fun!

Blue x

[Perinowpost]

Hi Blue pretty much the same as you, I’ve tried:
the mirena (which I had to have removed after 6 months),
noresthisterone in patch form,
Dydrogesterone in Femoston,
Tibolone (not technically orog but ill for the 3 months I was on it),
utrogestan - even vaginally can only tolerate 7 days,
Private 50mg progesterone in tablet form.

I haven’t been able to tolerate any of them continuously. Symptoms are always the same, ok at first then quickly builds and becomes intolerable. Relief only occurring after withdrawal.

I am about to trial cyclogest 100mg vaginally alternative nights, but it is pretty much my last ditch attempt on progs available on the nhs. I’ve thought about trying the private lozenges but it’s all so expensive and especially when it doesn’t work.

There’s no getting used to progesterone for me. I suspect if I want to stay on hrt (which I do), the only way is minimum dose for minimum time  x

[CrispyChick]

Sorry to hear that Blue.

I assume, as you're using lozenges, you're under a clinic??? What's their advice??? Have they tested you during this latest trial??? X

[Blue Kingfisher]

Perinowpost your experiences sound very familiar! I start off ok but it quickly builds up whatever the dose, whatever the form of administration-all leads to debilitating symptoms.

Crispy, yes, I’m under a clinic but the lozenges have been the best of a bad bunch so I’ve just got on with it this time. I could easily go back pretty promptly but I’d rather wait & see what my symptoms tell me when I’ve been off progesterone for longer - I need more data as my oestrogel dose is much lower than when I was on Utrogestan so this will all be very telling for me.

I honestly don’t see the point of testing at the moment with regards to progesterone levels, I can’t tolerate progesterone conti full stop. The only test I think worthwhile is the uterine scan at the moment.

I’m on day 5 of no progesterone and still feeling MASSIVELY better. No bleed as of yet but presume that will happen over the next few days. I can feel my body going through withdrawal and it’s not pleasant but this is NOTHING compared to how too much progesterone makes me feel trust me!

Hope things start to turn the corner for you with your cream trial!

Blue x

[dangermouse]

Hey, re the testing, I just had a normal blood test with my NHS GP and the progesterone was very high when I was on the cream. I think it may have flagged as abnormal.

I found the lozenges hit my blood stream quicker and left quicker so it felt more volatile. The cream felt more subtle going in and out but still led to high levels in blood.

The fact I had a much smoother ride the other side of perimenopause (almost post) now that oestrogen has significantly fallen, I suspect the same rollercoaster ride that I had was being impacted by my high oestrogen levels, in how the progesterone displaced the excess oestrogen and dumped it into bowels and back into temporary circulation.

I suspect only megadoses of progesterone cream would have controlled it but that would potentially have brought other issues to the table.

[CrispyChick]

Thanks Dangermouse.

That's reassuring about the bloods. I've got over the blood discrepancies - I'm just reading too much.

Still feeling hellish on the 150mg. The clinics response was to drop back to 50mg. I felt dreadful on that.

My gut is telling me the cream is just poking at me and giving me bad estrogen responses... I think I need more. Or maybe a different route.

Remembering back to Xmas when I first trialled pills... I had horrific estrogen kickback for 5 days then a switch where that all went away, but I became narky. So oral definitely affected me differently - and that was a very small dose.

Dangermouse - can you recall what dose troche you tried??? I suspect a lower dose troche equates to a high dose cream - but I could be wrong.

So, bloods a week today 🥳 then consult 10 days after that.

I think this is going to be a long road... But hopefully there are still options.

I should add, after stopping the testosterone/dhea I am no where near as calm and relaxed. So it's something I'll probably try again in the future - I've got loads of the stuff in the cupboard now 😬

[Hurdity]

Hi there

Some unfamiliar ideas being talked about on this thread....

dangermouse - I don't understand  "....was being impacted by my high oestrogen levels, in how the progesterone displaced the excess oestrogen and dumped it into bowels and back into temporary circulation." - what is the basis for this?

I don't know of the mechanism by which this can occur - please explain and if you have any scientific references please do post!

Crispychick - sorry to hear you are feeling rough....
I don't understand this though:

.."My gut is telling me the cream is just poking at me and giving me bad estrogen responses.."

Please explain if possible? I understand ( though not the mechanism) that progesterone can interfere with the beneficial effects of oestrogen such that a higher oestrogen dose is then needed in order to feel better - hence some women actually increasing their oestrogen dose when they are on the progesterone part of cyclical HRT. Stellajane in particular (no longer a member) used to report this and would increase her oestrogen dose accordingly. Personally I haven't noticed (that I need more oestrogen during the prog phase - though I have never tried to increase).

The idea is not that progesterone has any effect on oestrogen levels (as I understand) but that the negative side effects can come to the fore and in a way "drown out" the positive response to oestrogen.

So for example in pregnancy both our progesterone and oestrogen levels are extremely high so we feel simultaneously tired but exhilarated ((hopefully)! This explains also why women on low dose oestrogen but standard, licensed dose of progesterone may still feel rough.

This is a separate phenomenon from balancing progesterone and oestrogen to protect the endometrium.

Hurdity x

[CrispyChick]

Hi Hurdity

I found this article very good for explaining where I am at in terms of perimenopause, and why progesterone supplementation alone may be beneficial - and much more appropriate than the contraceptive pill for managing my symptoms.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3987489/

As you'll have seen from the thread, I have started low dose progesterone treatment via a compounded pharmacy - as progesterone treatment alone has never been explored with me through my GP or NHS meno clinic.

I have been quite shocked to find my original symptoms ramp up during this progesterone trial. I have therefore highly researched and discovered a phenonomon which I would describe as 'progesterone in low doses, or when starting out, can antagonise the estrogen receptors'. In fact, some say this is why many women on cyclical hrt suffer as the stop/start approach induces this - although I wouldn't like to comment on that.

Although not a scientific paper, I found this, which explains much better than I can, and will allow you to research further, should you be interested.

https://doc.vortala.com/childsites/uploads/88/files/Why-Some-Women-Feel-Worse-When-Starting-Natural-Progesterone.pdf

Not sure there are any scientific papers on this in the UK. Perhaps it's not been studied. However, there is a huge amount of anecdotal evidevce about this, particularly from America - where they often use progesterone therapy.

I personally find other people's experiences much more valuable than any scientific paper. As I do feel this area of pre menopause is lacking in research and advice in the UK.

Only time will tell if this is what I am experiencing. I currently believe the progesterone cream is not strong enough for me and is antognising my estrogen rather than increasing my progesterone sufficiently enough to bring balance.

[CrispyChick]

I appreciate my reference to the progesterone cream just 'poking at me' not being one of my better descriptions