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[Dotty]

https://www.besins-healthcare.com/products/ - Progestogel

has anyone seen this product made by Besins ? i believe it's available in Belgium.

Not sure if iy would work for HRT x

[Hurdity]

Thanks Dotty yes it has been mentioned before. It's for breast pain but not licensed/available in UK and also as far as I know therefore not studies for its role as part of HRT. There is a gel that is though - Crinone - but discussion about all of these proprietary products is better in the main board as they are not alternatives!

Ladybt "Hurdity - surely Jaydass is in the hrt armoury even if it is not a specific treatment as hormone replacement?

Anything as an alternative to a mirina surely has to be on a list of possibles?"

Absolutely - exactly!! What I was saying was that all of these different regulated products ie the different progestogens, doses and regimes should be discussed on the main board as above - they are not alternatives. ie there are a huge number of possibilites even using existing rpdoucts and off-licence without having to resort to cBHRT (as per BMS definition).

Hurdity x

[Hurdity]

Thank you for taking the time to post on this contentious thread Dr Currie.

That members of this forum wish all other women the very best of health and especially  leading up to and following menopause, including HRT treatment if necessary that enables her to have the best quality of life ? is an absolute given.

That at the moment treatment provision can be patchy and inconsistent even among the expert menopause specialists both NHS and private is also true and extremely frustrating for us all. So pleased to read the consistency amongst some of the well-known advisers and specialists GypsyRoseLee.

That we all would like to see a wider range of progesterone preparations, doses, delivery methods has also been said many many times on here.

However this overall does not mean that anything goes and that we should promote absolutely anything to achieve this purpose. What I'm really concerned about reading some of the responses is that the treatment that is being promoted on here is tempting women at their most vulnerable to look upon this as their only remaining choice, to follow a very expensive and unregulated path and in any case in addition as I (and Mary G herself) points out is only actually suitable for those on low doses of oestrogen otherwise the progesterone dose would be inadequate.

In addition the issue of monitoring has been pointed out several times ? but this is not a justification for going down the route of cBHRT! Firstly if you pay for any private treatment - you will be monitored ? so if you are going to pay (and are in the very fortunate position to be able to afford it) for private treatment  far better to go to a recognised BMS approved menopause specialist where you can be prescribed an individualised regime using regulated bio-identical hormones (?rBHRT? in the BMS statement) so  you will also have (and of course pay for) the same monitoring.

That's the thing ? several issues are being conflated here ? private vs NHS and regulated hormones vs compounded. Because of inadequacies in the NHS this is being used as justification for using compounded hormones.

As for the cost ? please do not be misled by the figures put out on here. I have looked up one VERY WELL KNOWN  clinic that prescribed this sort of stuff and the costs are CONSIDERABLE and ONGOING:

Initial consultation ?300
Follow-up consultations (if within two years of first) ?140
Blood tests ?  ?295 required by every new patient, and thereafter every 6-12 months and maybe more frequently in the early stages
Pelvic Ultrasound scan ( TVS) ?320 required by every new patient, and thereafter annually
+ cost of prescriptions
+ travel costs to London

So if at the very minimum you have 2 sets of blood tests in the first year, with your initial scan with an initial and follow-up consultation then at the very least this will cost ?1350 but it sounds like you might need additional scans or blood tests on top, + the cost of your actual prescription, which at the place Mary G goes to she says is ?1 per day so another ?360 on top of that so comes to at least ?1760 ? a long way from a possibly affordable ?200 or so that some women pay for a private consultation followed up by a letter to their GP to enable them to get their future prescriptions on NHS.

Please don't get me wrong ? I sincerely wish you all well and have every sympathy for your situations. This is not about private vs NHS, it's about choosing to go down this very expensive route of unregulated hormones. Of course it's a free choice in a free world ? for the privileged few that is ? and we have to make up our own minds but I feel so strongly about this (did you guess?!  ) that I feel I have to continue to speak up and I make no apology for doing so.

Have a good day everyone

Hurdity x

[Mary G]

Thank you Dr Currie, I'm hoping you can answer my great unanswered question. 

As stated above, I cannot tolerate any form of synthetic progesterone (including the Mirena coil) and I can never take Utrogestan again at any dose or in any combination.  My migraine specialist completely ruled out a cycle because I must have hormonal stability. 

Fortunately I have found my own solution that has finally given me the hormonal stability I need but I would like to know what the NHS solution would be for a woman in my situation who has exhausted all NHS progesterone options.  A hysterectomy perhaps?

Thank you in advance.

[GypsyRoseLee]

For the love of God, Hurdity. If some women have exhausted every NHS avenue, are at the end of their tethers, and can afford to try BHRT from a reputable clinic...

Then. They. Have. Every. Right. To. Do. So.

 There comes a point, where you feel so utterly drained and despondent that you stop caring about percentages, and citations, and references and studies. It all becomes meaningless. And you just want something that might work. Personally I wouldn't have given a shit if I paid John Studd ?600 for blood tests + a placebo...

If. It . Worked.

Trying BHRT ain't going to kill you. I totally agree that it might not work. I totally agree that it is very expensive. I totally agree that ideally it should be more regulated. I might not even agree with the women who choose to try it.

But I would defend to the death their right to make that choice.

[GypsyRoseLee]

I am very resentful of the phrase 'priviledged few' too. No one knows what people are prepared to do or sacrifice in order to access the correct health care for them. They might easily afford it, or have taken on more work, or borrowed from family or forgone a holiday that year. We just don't know.

Not so much privileged, as at their absolute wits end very often.

[Mary G]

Thank you GRL and thank you sparkle, this is becoming grindingly tedious and dogmatic.

I couldn't give a flying **** as to whether or not my progesterone is regulated.  Regulated Utrogestan made me blind and unable to function for 30 minutes at a time so I'll take unregulated progesterone that works all day long.

A major point is being missed here.  Bespoke progesterone doesn't have to suit everyone or be compared to other types of progesterone, it only has to work for the individual concerned, it is a personalised treatment.  I'm not suggesting bespoke progesterone is rolled out nationwide via the NHS, I've made it very clear that it is a life line for a minority of desperate women who have exhausted all other progesterone options and are facing a hysterectomy.  It is a last resort.

The ultimate test for any progesterone product is endometrial protection and my progesterone gives me a womb lining measurement of 3.3mm but more importantly it gives me hormonal stability and prevents my migraines.

I did not say that 50mg progesterone is only suitable for a low dose of oestrogen.  I was originally using two pumps of Oestrogel with 50mg progesterone every day and my oestrogen blood levels were in the late 500-600s which is not low.   I reduced to one pump of gel because of hormone balance and migraines, not womb lining build up, I could easily have continued with two pumps of gel and 50mg progesterone every day.

I have not named the clinic I attend for my progesterone and they do not force expensive tests upon people.  I would never pay anything like that amount of money for blood tests or a uterine scan.  I have these tests at a clinic elsewhere.

I wonder when my big question will be answered?

[Mary G]

Stellajane, it is a pity my well intentioned thread has supposedly become contentious, there in no reason for this to be the case.

I was in two minds about starting this thread for obvious reasons but was persuaded to do so by others.  I have been mentioning my regime on here from time to time in various posts and I have received numerous PMs from desperate women who are now trying bespoke progesterone (most using different clinics throughout the UK) but they feel uncomfortable about going public with it in here.  I think that is tragic.

[dazned]

I haven't posted on here for years as fortunately I am feeling well and settled now after a horrendous time with trying to find a hrt solution that suited me but I really feel that I couldn't not post about the privileged few comment. I decided I had no option but to seek private advice and take great offence at that comment . I'm far from privileged, I choose to not buy clothes, make up, have odd meals out etc.and put my health first! At the time I would and will take/use whatever gave me a reasonable quality of life. We should enable people to make their own choices without fear of retribution on this forum about their decisions. This after all is a support group . We all know that in an ideal world we shouldn't have to pay but then we don't live in an ideal world do we.

[bear]

Hi girls,

I think this thread is fascinating! Mary G, you have started a thread 'to discuss compounded hormones' and I think that's exactly what is happening, so I wouldn't say it's 'contentious' (yet, lol).

I have a lot of things to say, not just personal experience, but a lot of facts that I have been digging for a while and I would like to disclose them on this thread, would I be allowed to do it or should I start a new thread?

My personal experience is brief, one paragraph would cover it, but the facts surrounding this subject (regulatory, commercial, medical, financial) would probably need some pages (!). I haven't finished my research yet, when I started it I could rely on a lot of EU online information, but Brexit has got in the way...

BeaR.

[Tc]

Mary g. Thank you for starting this thread. I believe it has a place here.   

I would like to think that on our forum we can share the wide  range  of how we are coping with menopause and what has helped us with symptoms. And that includes many things which are not prescribed by the NHS. .

Whether people like it or not, cBHRT is being used by women in the UK  and many talk about it on other groups. Why shouldnt our forum reflect what is happening too.

This is one thread. It's not like a takeover is being mounted here.  There are still tons more threads about HRT.

I'm dissapointed to see people being accused of promoting things simply by sharing their experience.

And....cbhrt is not available on the NHS so those who are able to afford it (maybe by making great sacrifices) are not "choosing " to go private for it. It's the only option in this instance and therefore I cant see how it got brought into the whole debate in the first place.   

BeaR. Sounds very interesting indeed.

Xx

[Mary G]

Yes please BeaR, feel free to add it to this thread.

[GypsyRoseLee]

[waves at dazned]

It's utterly ludicrous that we can't discuss alternatives to HRT on the flipping 'Alternatives Forum' FGS! There's alternative treatments on here that I wouldn't touch with a barge pole, frankly. But again, I absolutely defend someone else's right to bloody try them.

This thread started out as very measured, with plenty of sensible caveats and carefully considered information. It wasn't remotely contentious - if anything it was positively staid.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that strident efforts are being made to cause contention in order to get the thread shut down? I very sincerely hope not.

We all know BHRT isn't regulated, yet. We absolutely know it, okay? We know. But, plenty of women are prepared to still try it. It is their choice.

Their choice.

[bear]

I haven't posted on here for years as fortunately I am feeling well and settled now after a horrendous time with trying to find a hrt solution that suited me but I really feel that I couldn't not post about the privileged few comment. I decided I had no option but to seek private advice and take great offence at that comment . I'm far from privileged, I choose to not buy clothes, make up, have odd meals out etc.and put my health first! At the time I would and will take/use whatever gave me a reasonable quality of life. We should enable people to make their own choices without fear of retribution on this forum about their decisions. This after all is a support group . We all know that in an ideal world we shouldn't have to pay but then we don't live in an ideal world do we.

Hi dazned,

I don't think we have 'spoken' before, just out of curiosity, what hrt did you end up taking which enabled you to feel well? So glad to hear you're feeling well and settled!

BeaR.

[bear]

Yes please BeaR, feel free to add it to this thread.

Hi Mary G,

Thank you, I'm almost finishing the 'compounding dossier', lol.

BeaR.