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[Alicess]

I came across this research by accident. Apparently, in the old days, high dose oestrogen (up to 30 mg) has been used as a first line treatment as well as a treatment for women with advanced breastcancer who became resistent to other forms of treatment. And from what I gathered It seemed to.work.

But 'a previous long period of estrogen deprivation is required for high-dose estrogens to be efficacious in this regard'

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378512216302833

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC138731/

https://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/69/2_Supplement/6129

Just wanted to share as it seems it's the other side of the coin.

Alicess

[Bobidy]

Hi

Yes it seems to go against everything we believe about bc and oestrogen. Prof Braum's podcast with liz earl was saying similar things. I know nothing about the subject but it's interesting for sure x

[Alicess]

Interesting indeed, makes you wonder if they are always on the right track where oestrogen is concerned.

I didn't know it's been talked about already. Will listen to the postcast. Thanks, Bobidy.

[Bobidy]

Hi

I posted the links a little while ago, or they are on liz Earle's website podcast section. X

[CLKD]

 

[Wrensong]

Alicess - I haven't read your links yet this evening but was aware high dose oestrogen had previously been used as BC treatment.  High dose progesterone too, from what I remember.  All very interesting & the field is vast with still much to learn I feel.
Wx

[Whatsupwiththis]

Alicess...thx for links.  It appears it is effective for women who have been depleted of estrogen for sometime...i.e. Women well into post menopause?  Did I read that right? 

[Alicess]

Whatsupwiththis, my brain is a bit foggy and I have to read  it again to be sure but yes, I think that's what they say.

"These concepts are 'the estrogen paradox? and the ?gap hypothesis?. The ?estrogen paradox? refers to the fact that on the one hand estrogens are known to stimulate the growth of breast cancer, whereas on the other hand high doses of estrogens are an effective treatment for this disease. The ?gap hypothesis? refers to the fact that HDEs are only significantly effective when the breast cancer has been devoid of estrogen exposure for a considerable amount of time, either because the patient is postmenopausal for at least five years or due to long term antiestrogen treatment.

[Maryjane]

Read the book Oestrogen matters by Avrum Blumin & listen to podcasts by Professor Micheal Baum saying they same basically.?

[Erika28]

Also this:

BMJ. 2012 Oct 9;345

"The women in the treated group with an intact uterus started treatment with 2 mg synthetic 17-β-estradiol for 12 days, 2 mg 17-β-estradiol plus 1 mg norethisterone acetate for 10 days, and 1 mg 17-β-estradiol for six days (Trisekvens; Novo Nordisk, Denmark). In women who had undergone hysterectomy, first line treatment was 2 mg 17-β-estradiol a day (Estrofem; Novo Nordisk, Denmark)."

(during intervention, after 10 yrs)
"The occurrence of any cancer did not differ significantly (39 in control group v 36 in treated group; 0.92, 0.58 to 1.45; P=0.71) or breast cancer (17 in control group v 10 in treated group, 0.58, 0.27 to 1.27; P=0.17; fig 4). The occurrence of other cancers did not differ significantly (25 in control group v 26 in treated group; 1.04, 0.60 to 1.80; P=0.88): three women in the control group had a diagnosis of both breast cancer and other cancer. The composite endpoint mortality or breast cancer applied to 40 women in the control group and 22 in the treated group (0.54, 0.32 to 0.91, P=0.020)."

(6 yrs after intervention, follow-up)
"The groups did not differ significantly for breast cancer (26 in control group v 24 in treated group; 0.90, 0.52 to 1.57; P=0.72) or for other cancers (43 in control group v 52 in treated group; 1.21, 0.81 to 1.82; P=0.35, fig 6)."

"A significant interaction was found between hormone replacement therapy and age at baseline for the composite endpoint mortality or breast cancer (P=0.028) with the younger women (<50 years) receiving hormone therapy having a significantly reduced risk (0.49, 0.28 to 0.87, P=0.015, fig 6). Women who had undergone hysterectomy (n=192) and received oestrogen alone had a decreased risk of death or breast cancer compared with women in the control group (0.42, 0.18 to 0.97; P=0.043; fig 6)."

"The rate of breast cancer and other cancer was not increased in the present study, but because of the potential time lag a longer follow-up may be necessary to make more definite conclusions."

[Erika28]

And...

Lancet Oncol. 2012 May;13(5):476-86

"By contrast with many observational studies, women in the Women's Health Initiative (WHI) trial who were randomly allocated to receive oestrogen alone had a lower incidence of invasive breast cancer than did those who received placebo. We aimed to assess the influence of oestrogen use on longer term breast cancer incidence and mortality in extended follow-up of this cohort"

"After a median follow-up of 11?8 years (IQR 9?1-12?9), the use of oestrogen for a median of 5?9 years (2?5-7?3) was associated with lower incidence of invasive breast cancer (151 cases, 0?27% per year) compared with placebo (199 cases, 0?35% per year; HR 0?77, 95% CI 0?62-0?95; p=0?02) with no difference (p=0?76) between intervention phase (0?79, 0?61-1?02) and post-intervention phase effects (0?75, 0?51-1?09)."

"In the oestrogen group, fewer women died from breast cancer (six deaths, 0?009% per year) compared with controls (16 deaths, 0?024% per year; HR 0?37, 95% CI 0?13-0?91; p=0?03). Fewer women in the oestrogen group died from any cause after a breast cancer diagnosis (30 deaths, 0?046% per year) than did controls (50 deaths, 0?076%; HR 0?62, 95% CI 0?39-0?97; p=0?04)."

[Alicess]

Thank you, Maryjane, I wil... I definitely want to know more.

Thank you, Erika. Do you know if any of these studies followed the 'gap hypothesis' ; deprivation of oestrogen before treatment?

Re Lancet Oncol 2012; is this the same WHI trail which concluded that oestrogen/ HRT causes BC?

[GypsyRoseLee]

I have done so much research and reading since my breast cancer DX and time and time again I keep discovering how 'beneficial' oestrogen is if you have been diagnosed, or are a survivor. Apparently the fact I was already on HRT when DX means I have a better prognosis than a woman who wasn't on it! I know it seems very counter intuitive, but it's all there in black and white!

And before the advent of Tamoxifen, high doses of oestrogen were the gold standard when it came to treating metastatic breast cancer, and it was very successful in over a third of patients!

I wonder if Oestrogen will become like cholestrol? Remember 30 years when ALL cholestrol was deemed evil? But in the last 10 years, suddenly we find out there is 'good' cholestrol after all...

[Jari]

Hi ladies,

I have estrogen receptive breast cancer in family so I know a bit about it.

2 out of 3 breast cancers are hormone receptive. Either estrogen or progesterone.

I think the treatment of using hormones depends very much on the type of breast cancer. Stage, age of patient, whether post meno for at least 5 years etc.

Two thirds of breast cancers are stimulated to grow by the hormones estrogen or progesterone which are found naturally in our bodies. These are known as hormone receptor-positive cancers.

Hormone therapy lowers the levels of estrogen or progesterone hormones ( depending on which hormone is causing you the bc ) in your body or stops their effects.

The type of hormone therapy you might have will depend on which hormone you are sensitive to.

Because estrogen encourages hormone receptor positive bc to grow, lowering the estrogen level can help to slow the cancer growth or prevent it from coming back. X

[GypsyRoseLee]

Thank you Jari. Do you know anything about taking hormone therapy (Tamoxifen) alongside HRT? As I understand it, the Tamoxifen cleverly binds to the estrogen receptor cells in breast tissue - which means the rest of 'you' can benefit from the HRT?

I listened to a very informative podcast between Diane Danzibrink and Nick Panay about this exact thing. It seems almost too good to be true, but Nick Panay does prescribe HRT to his patients already on Tamoxifen. It would be fantastic if you could protect your boobs whilst taking proper care of your bones, heart and mental health.