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[Hurdity]

Sammiejane, I think you need to increase your estrogel. If you feel rubish on it it doesn't necessarily mean it's the estrogel. You probably need more pumps. Urtrogestan will probably make it worse as it increases SHBG thus lowering testosterone. I think you should discuss this with your specialist.

Hi Alicess - Interesting re the progesterone and SHBG - I haven't come across this - do you have a reference. I know that progesterone has a depressing effect on libido but didn't know it could be via its effect on SHBG? This would be very significant and have implications for HRT regimes. I've had a quick look but can't get into the refs I found and also just about to sign off and caught your post so no time right now!

Hurdity x

[dangermouse]

Hi alicess

I was only wanting to add progesterone for hairloss and to balance out the effects of estrogen which my meno said I can try but utrogestan 100mg every night.

I feel rubbish on estrogen only I cannot function !
And have been suffering 9 months now

Hey, I'm reading a book that had something interesting about ovaries at menopause:

‘Around the time that a woman is in her mid-forties, something very interesting happens: The inner part of the ovary develops a life of its own and produces estradiol, progesterone and androgens independent of follicles or corpus luteum cysts. In other words, the ovaries stop producing eggs but not hormones.' (Hormone Balance, Carolyn Dean)

I've never read this before (if it's accurate) and as these hormones are also produced in the adrenals it does suggest that we need all 3 for therapeutic and rebalancing reasons.

[Sammiejane]

Hi Alice's

Yes have already spoke to specialist they have left it up to me to decide whether to up the gel or add in progesterone or change to patch and add in progesterone or go on the contraceptive pill

I read though a few books from celebrities who have had ovaries and womb removed who take estrogen and testosterone and have hair loss because they are missing progesterone part ?

[Hurdity]

Sammiejane I suggest you start a new thread related to your question with a new title so as to attract answers from the right people, as this one's about different kinds of oestrogen and Kathleen's original point - you may not get the responses you are seeking.

Hurdity x

[Kathleen]

Hello again ladies

Dangermouse - thanks for a very interesting piece of information.  It makes you wonder if HRT fails for some of us because it is actually adding to our hormone imbalance.   A new book about balancing hormones will be published next year. It is likely to be science based and I'm hoping that it will have some good news for us meno ladies.

Take care.

K.

[Alicess]

Hi Hurdity, I found this research about Urtrogestan increasing SHBG

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6538615

It would make sense as Urtrogestan doesn't have any androgenic activity while most progestins do. Progestins with high progestogenic activity
have weak androgenic activity.  Levonorgestrel and Tibolone are the most androgenic progestins and can decrease SHBG. It seems the more androgenic the more decrease of SHBG

I have posted some links in this thread about SHBG and progestens

https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,43535.0.html

It could very well be the lack of androgenic activity in Urtrogestan that is, partly, to blame for its side-effects, as you mentioned.

[Winterose]

Premarin has 9 different Estrogens and one that attaches itself to oestrogen receptors in the brain.

Have considered trying it out .

[Hurdity]

Alicess - thanks for that. The study you linked to relates to women with very severe pms and also uses progesterone at extremely high doses not used in HRT - and is a very early study. It doesn't look as though it was placebo controlled and refers to SHBG binding capacity not necessarily SHBG itself so will reserve judgement on that one for the time being! Interesting though....

Thanks for the refs to the other thread and will have a read of those another time.

Tibolone is a special case as it is not oestrogen, progesterone nor testosterone but breaks down into compounds which have activity similar to these three hormones. I know it reduces SHBG which is one of the mechanisms by which it is thought to increase libido as it increases free T, as well as the testosterone-like metabolite also binding to androgen receptors ( this is from memory!).

Interesting that about levonorgestrel. I knew that some of the testosterone derived progestogens bind to androgen recpeotrs hence for some women help with libido but didn't know about the SHBG effect as with the Tibolone metabolite.

re the last ref - yes I think it's well known that in some tissues progesterone interferes with the (beneficial) effect of oestrogen but that still doesn't explain re SHBG which is separate from the hormones' effects on receptors.

Aaagh it's all so complicated! I think we struggle because it is still not all fully understood, and because of this there is no clear summary or review with mechanistic explanations!

The whole point about utrogestan ie progesterone is that it is our own progesterone and as such is not androgenic,, and therefore has the same metabolic effect - the others are synthetic. The side effects are due to the large doses needed in HRT and high quantities of metabolites especially after oral ingestion.

Sorry Kathleen this is not about oestrogen!

Thanks for the refs Alicess...

Hurdity x

[Whatsupwiththis]

Hi awesome ladies:  My GP has me on ESTRAGYN which is estrone.  She said that this product is excellent and pharmacist concured.  I use Vagifem internally and Estragyn externally.  I can say that it certainly helped with the vulva atrophy.  Estrone converts into estroidol in the post menopausal phase and that's why estrone is now being recommended. 

[Hurdity]

That's interesting Whatsupwiththis. What country do you live in? That's not available here although there are different oestrogens and other substances used for VA - here in UK  for VA we have estradiol (the conventional one)  as Vagifem, estriol as generic 0.01 % or Ovestin 0.1 %, and recently there has been licensed a DHEA pessary - Prasterone (Intrarosa) which also converts to estradiol. The estriol  binds directly to the oestrogen receptors whereas DHEA and estrone need to be converted to estradiol in local tissues first. I think in US they have ( or used to have ) a conjugated equine oestrogen cream for VA (the horse pee one!).

Hurdity x

[Kathleen]

Hello again ladies.

Yet more excellent comments.

Hurdity -  don't worry about posts not being about oestrogen specifically. The more the merrier!

Whatsupwiththis - your estrone experience sounds very interesting and I'm sure ladies will want to know if it's available here in the UK.

As you say Hurdity, it is all so complicated and the mechanisms are not fully understood.  More's the pity.

Take care everyone.

K.

[Whatsupwiththis]

Hi all:  I live in Canada where Estragyn is widely used.  Not sure if available in U.K.  We have limited options with respect to topical hormone..Premarin (pregnant mares urine - Very cruel), Vagifem and Estragyn.  I believe the U.S. has one called NeoEstrone which is quite popular.  U.S. has a number of estrone pills available.  Estragyn is estrified estrogens made from plant derivatives (yam).

[bear]

Hi Whatsupwiththis,

Canada 

BeaR.

[KiltedCupid]

It's my understanding that oral oestradiol hrt is converted into high levels of estrone and lower levels of E2. There's some conversion to estrone with transdermal but nowhere near as high as oral.

[Whatsupwiththis]

BeaR.....yup....Kanuck all the way....(except in winter YUK).