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[squeaker99]

I am back on here having thought I had nailed Peri and the anxiety train it brings with it. So wrong.
I have had two consecutive nights with no sleep and am terrified it will kill me. Really.
I had a bad 10 day stretch a few yeas ago but since then have generally been OK or only have the odd
night. For me it is the fear of not sleeping that fuels the anxiety. I am exhausted but get into bed at 10pm
and am not only wide awake but hyper, heart racing. Yes I have read all the Sleep Hygine aids, the books
the audios. Been to GP (yesterday), My brain is so foggy now I can only think about 1)The fact I won't sleep
tonight and 2) A few more night of this will kill me and 3) I love my kids so much.... I feel very alone with this.
I know what I should do but find it impossible to stop my brain telling me these awful things.

I guess I am looking for reassurance and empathy from people who have been through this. I know it is Cortisol/Adrenaline
based due to Peri.



I never game sleep a thought before Peri. It just happened and I never worried about a bad night, even though my
son slept badly for 7 years!

[CLKD]

........... and breath!

I had 8 years in a very busy job with not sleeping well.  It was when I moved that I realised that I hadn't had a good night's sleep for years.  However.  1 night I woke telling myself that it hadn't killed me and I was doing my job without problems.  After that, I slept better.

Stop looking for going to sleep, a habit I got into.  Early hours my mind would say "not another night, how will I cope in the morning".  But I did.  So will you.

My evening routine is a deep bubble bath with very good book.  I have a light on background all night so that I won't have to wake completely on my 1-2 bathroom visits.  The nights prior to going away if the alarm is set, I often don't sleep until the early hours.  My mind obviously waiting 4 the alarm to ring 

I can sleep on a linen line when my brain shuts off.  So I never deny myself sleep and usually sleep in the night. 

Lack of sleep in your situation is unlikely to kill you.  Continual disruption of sleep is used as a torture method when it certainly can become dangerous.

Keep to a sleep habit from 6.30 p.m. Oh Lunch is served, I'll be back ;-)

[CLKD]

Right I'm getting round a pizza ;-)

Certainly if the body is hungry it can keep a person awake. As can dehydration.  Gentle exercise is important anyway, I don't get enough.   .  Adrenaline can help how we feel, speaking to people can help i.e. going shopping and talking the girl at the Till. 

R U in a stressful job?  Think about your whole lifestyle: family commitments, commuting times, diet ........

Cortisol is the waking hormone.  It would cause me to wake suddenly, deeply afraid - anytime after 3.30 a.m.  throughout the 1990s. 

It's easy to say 'don't focus on how much sleep you get but more on what you do have each night' - .......... get into a good routine in the day, making lists if necessary.  Wind down in the evening and don't watch TV that might waken the senses 

A short course of sleeping tablets from the GP might help too as it gets the brain back into sleep mode.  I had 5 tablets  - took 1 for 2 nights then didn't need the others. Nights I can't sleep I read, make a cuppa; anything to stop my brain whizzing 

[squeaker99]

Thanks for your replies ladies.
I have tried two HRTs (although my only ' bad' symptoms of Peri are increased anxiety - I have always been anxious. I get it from my dad who also has sleep problems) which I came off due to adverse side effects.  I have tried Propranol and Cloindine but they messed with my BP.  I either sleep 5/6/7 hours with maybe one toilet get up or else I don't sleep at all. If I don't get off by 1:00am that is me up all night. I never feel ' rested' these nights and always buzzy/fight or flight. I am usually in such a state that I forget to get up and just too and turn trying to get some hours in.  I have done meditation in the past and CBT which help well unless I get on this awful anxiety fuelled loop.

I work from home which doesn't help. I have had many GPs recommend Sertraline as anxiety has always been there prior to Peri so I may give that a go.  I feel this is hormone related but which and why I have no idea. I seem to get bad stretches 2-3 times a year.

[CLKD]

Also the nights are light and dawn breaks earlier so your sleep pattern may well be affected, now we are going into Autumn nights will pull in   

It's the "I'm awake so won't get to sleep".  Wakes the brain immediately.  Have some books/craft work/radio ready for those nights in the lounge.  If you find you are sleepy, don't go to bed 'cos that will wake you.  Have a blanket to pull over you and sleep where you are.  It breaks the habit.

Although so-called 'experts' [how I HATE that word] suggest keeping to the same sleep routine, I disagree - through experience if I sleep when I can I still sleep at night (usually) and we lay in at weekends without any problems.  Do what is right to get you back into a good sleep pattern and if you are able to catch up, do so.

Think of babies, puppies, kittens who sleep when they can 

[squeaker99]

What fuels your loop Birdy? I don't worry about any ' stuff' in life - just health. I am
terrified of not being here for my kids as my son is very emotional and always worrys about me.
I do wonder if he has got worrying off my or whether it is just in our genes.  This fear of not
sleeping is ridiculous, it is so counter productive. I sometimes feel I just can't fight it.

[AgathaC]

I can empathise.
I feel I am now defined by my perimenopause, my health anxiety, my insomnia, my digestive issues, my sore boobs......
I've been sleeping from 2/3 until 5/6 am recently which is why I look 74 not 47.
My advice is to do all your jobs while you can't sleep so at least you're not tired AND behind.
Eventually, after a month or two, the cycle breaks for me and I can sleep maybe midnight until 5/5.30am which is much more acceptable.
I can also empathise  specifically with your worries and comments about your children. Health anxiety has become an everyday thing for me and I just flip between ailments.
A health anxiety diary helps.  My worries of August 2018 are the same as now in August 2019...

[CLKD]

Your children will pick up your anxiety.  That's why since age 3 I've had panic attacks, I can't remember what was happening but it's continued down the years  and certain situations trigger reactions.

Sit your children down and talk to them. Take time with them.  Put away gadgets, get out and walk!  What ages are they, I remember having I-Spy books - can still buy them  to do stuff together.  Do you have parks close by?  Fresh air makes us tired naturally ;-).

[squeaker99]

Thanks ladies. I am reading your lovely posts whilst eating a Chelsea bun after gently nodding off to Countdown only yo be woken every 5 minutes by that lovely ticking clock refrain.  I did think I had ' beaten' this anxiety/cortisol/no sleep rubbish....after years of CBT/vitamin cocktails/cows pee hormones/5am walks/OCD gland prodding / tearful Meno clinic trips/ lists/Pricey Meno cook books/....I thought I may have my 4 balls in the air for once.  I was just tearfully telling my long suffering DH in all seriousness that I wanted ' Here Comes the Sun' to be played at my funeral.

Selfish. I feel very self wallowing. Childish even.  Like I maybe just need a good kick up this BS like in the 50s. But it all feel so real.
I thought at 5am this morning, what a stupid way to die - through self inflicted lack of sleep. What a totally rubbish role model I am for my wonderful kids.

[CLKD]

Yep.  You've answered your own sentiments - but it won't solve the lack of sleep immediately.

Be kinder to yourself!  Sleep deprivation is cyclic: don't sleep, worry about not sleeping, waking to see if you have dropped off to sleep  .  We actually don't need as much as we think we do - the body will sleep when it needs it, to the point of people falling asleep whilst driving etc..  We are forced into habits which are not normal, think of Cave Man [in fur not lycra?] - went to sleep at dusk, woke at dawn. Had much more to worry him than we do but our ancestral habits continue: fear of spiders, anxiety about sabre toothed tigers etc. instead we wander round supermarkets hunting for stuff.

Get into a sleep pattern.  Get DH to help.  'here comes the sun' wouldn't be my choice as I never liked the Beatles  - another thread? 

Does DH sleep, mine does.  Really really well, he'll apologise in the mornings if I've had a bad night 'alone' 

Surivival is selfish - that's way babies cry, sometimes B4 being born!

[Foxylady]

Hi squeaker99, I'm sorry to hear you are having such a hard time with insomnia, you have my every sympathy (I've had 3yrs of it). I started my second regime of HRT end of June and had 3 great weeks with consistent good sleep, unfortunately this has not continued, far from as bad as it was before but still not as good as I'd like. I'm planning to wait until I've had the 3 months on this regime & see how things are from there. I slept for 1.5hrs midday today (unusual as I'm always worried it will affect my nights sleep). I have tried various things myself to try & help, umpteen trials of supplements now on Magnesium & vitamin D, flaxseed, also changed my diet & lost weight, recenty been having massages (weekly) and using aromatherapy oils.
I have always had good 'sleep hygiene' so I know that has not been an issue, I did see improvement when I stopped having caffeine (tea/coffee) after 6pm at night & mainly drinking de caf. I know how soul destroying it is and how much of an impact it can have on your life, I was still having to work full time. I hope you find relief from this vicious cycle & get a well deserved nights sleep. x

[CLKD]

Don't restrict liquid intake in the evening as it makes the kidneys work harder = more getting out of bed!

[Wrensong]

Hi Squeaker.  Big hug first.

So sorry to hear you are struggling so much with insomnia.  I completely understand how worried you are as I was where you are now, for several years during peri & it's a Godawful thing to deal with.  Even 7 years postmenopause, insomnia continues to be a major issue for me & one of the main reasons I have recently gone back on systemic HRT. 

Insomnia hasn't killed me yet, but as with you, there have been times when I truly thought it might.  It's no joke and can be a very frightening thought.  My insomnia goes back more than 30 years as I have a chronic pain condition that cannot be treated, but during peri the most intense overheating began every night & that exacerbated the insomnia & still does.  Since peri started there has also been inexplicable early waking that happens whether I have pain or night sweats or not.  I simply wake & am too alert to get back to sleep, despite being very tired by day.  Now long postmenopause, I still find it very hard to sleep much after about 3:30am and often only sleep poorly before that.  But this is still far better than I was a decade & more ago. 

During the peri years, on many nights, especially close to a period, I had no sleep at all.  It terrified me & I amassed a library of books on how to deal with it + CD's & tried all the various supplements.

I would back Birdy's comment that meditation really can help.  But you have to get into regular practice to really reap the benefits.  It can improve not only sleep & anxiety but physical health - there are many studies showing amazing benefits, so if you can get back to doing this again, somehow make the time & get into a routine, it is perhaps the best health insurance measure you can take at this difficult time.

I know this is controversial, but I have to go against advice that magnesium & B vitamins are always helpful.  I found both exacerbated my sleep issues when peri began.  Magnesium IS said to be sedative & calming & I am all for its cautious use in those women it helps.  It did help me sleep & relax for years before hormones began to go awry, so if you have not tried magnesium it may help.  BUT nutritional supplements can have unexpected, idiosyncratic effects in individuals & at menopause when the body is out of balance I suspect it is relatively easy to do more harm than good this way.  I found B group vits too stimulating & that magnesium made me far too hot.  The diuretic effect can also mess with electrolytes & possibly cause dehydration which can also have adverse effects on sleep.

Foxy - I'm going to say something similar about flax - again another supplement that can be amazingly beneficial to many women especially for digestive issues & one that helped me no end BEFORE peri began.  Though it's termed a phyto-oestrogen, it's thought that the lignans flax contains can have either oestrogenic or ANTI-oestrogenic effects.  So at a time when we're trying to increase our oestrogen levels, flax may jeopardise those efforts & I suspect, oppose the effects of HRT.  I found to my dismay that once peri began the flax seeds I'd found so helpful for digestive issues actually worsened my meno symptoms including flushing, night sweats & insomnia.  They also raised pulse rate & made me feel jittery & hyper.  I thought flax was somehow potentiating thyroid hormone (I am on Thyroxine & T3) but after researching & experimenting with excluding & reintroducing it, came to the conclusion it was more likely lowering oestrogen levels.  The following link may not be the best example of the anti-oestrogenic effect proposed in the scientific literature, but I think it's interesting.

The meaty bits are:-

"A phytoestrogen is a plant nutrient that is somewhat similar to the female hormone estrogen. Due to this similarity, lignans may have estrogenic and/or anti-estrogenic effects in the body."

"Lignans, which are the type of phytoestrogens in flaxseed, can change estrogen metabolism. In postmenopausal women, lignans can cause the body to produce less active forms of estrogen."

https://www.oncologynutrition.org/on/erfc/healthy-nutrition-now/foods/flaxseeds-and-breast-cancer

I'm not advising anyone to stop supplements they find helpful - we all need to help ourselves as best we can.  I'm simply sounding a note of caution & suggesting that this is a time when we need to be very vigilant to the way our bodies respond & open to the possibility that some "natural" remedies may upset the very delicate balance of the body at a time when its ability to maintain homoeostasis is already badly compromised by the hormonal chaos of menopause.

Sorry this is a bit of a meander - but anything that might help us sleep at this time seems worth raising.
Wx

[CLKD]

Any meander can be useful 

Certainly practicing relaxation etc. is important.  I have found the tense/relax method useful - starting at the toes one stretches, holds, the relaxes.  All the way up the body.  Usually by the time I get to knees  .  Also deep breathing - as deep as possible whilst laying in a comfy position, hold and let it go as slowly as possible.  That has worked 4 me.  Note to self - remember to practice!

[squeaker99]

Thanks for your post Wrensong- hugs, empathy and straws to clutch are much appreciated!

I agree re the vitamins. I went through a phase of trying them all but it messed my liver up. Ditto valarian for me - made me feel awful.
The lack of a medical diagnosis and multiple suggestions from multiple GPs for my increased anxiety/insomnia makes me lurch to anything that may take me back to how I was 5 years ago.

Any tips on what to do with my brain in bed at night to avoid it thinking ' This is the dreaded moment when I lie awake all night' - I try visualisation/story telling/counting/breathing - I try and I try.

I have never managed to get out of bed after 20 minutes and do something else.  I am so desperate to get my 5+ hours the idea of getting up at 3am seems mad .  But then I just toss and turn and stew.  Any other thought on this? I neighbour swears it worked for her.