Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Joesmum]

I feel absolutely dreadful. I can barely function.
My estrodial level on a 50mcg patch was 140 pmols
Now on a 75mcg patch it's even lower at 115 pmols.

I don't know what's happened but I seem to have stopped absorbing the patches?

Why would that have happened?

I literally feel drugged. I can't walk in a straight line. I feel very slow. My vision is awful. My speech is slow. I can barely function.

Could these symptoms be related to my levels of 115 pmols.?

I think I'm going to have to go back to Estrogel.

[dazned]

Sorry to hear how bad you are feeling,it's the pits isn't it !😠 Just to say maybe it was just the day your bloods were taken ? Tests only show a small window . However your symptoms seem to show a problem. Was there a problem on the gel ?

[dazned]

I can imagine, I've felt like it before.
You know your body best. Patches are supposed to provide a more consistent dose but not for everyone. At least with gel you can control your doses to suit you,1 pump,2 ,3,4 ,you can play around see what controls your personal symptoms. Hope you pick up soon.

[Wrensong]

Hi Joesmum - sorry to hear you are feeling so awful.  I'm afraid I don't know your history, but didn't want to read & run as we do have something in common - I was recently found to be absorbing poorly from Evorel Conti patches - Oestradiol lower than yours after 2 years on this regime, explaining persistent symptoms. 

I did have a short trial about 18 months ago when Sandrena gel was added to the Evorel Conti & judging by symptoms, oestradiol absorption seemed to increase (blood levels weren't tested though).  So you might find a change to gel with separate progesterone if you need it, is worth a try.  I wouldn't advocate adding gel to a combi patch regime, unless advised to do this by a gynae & your uterine lining monitored regularly afterwards (if you still have one), as increasing the oestrogen component of a combi patch regime without increasing the prog, might exceed the prog's capacity to keep lining thin.  The regime I had where Sandrena was added to Evorel Conti was suggested by a gynae specialising in menopause, but we stopped it after a few months due to concerns over post-meno bleeding.

You might also find you absorb better from a different manufacturer's patch, if you haven't already tried a range.  I seem to absorb Estradot better than Evorel.

You mention seeing an Endo - do you have a thyroid condition by any chance?  If hypothyroid, do your thyroid meds need increasing, as too little could account for the slowness & drugged feeling?  I assume your Endo would have already checked this out though.  Sorry I can't come up with anything more helpful.

[dazned]

Yes good point Wrensong, there is an interaction between thyroid meds and HRT I believe.

[Wrensong]

Yes Dazned - you're right - HRT & thyroid meds can interact.  I'm long term hypothyroid & have had to make repeated tweaks to thyroid meds during the 2 years we've being trying to find the right HRT, even though everything I've tried has been transdermal.  It seems it's not only oral oestrogen that interacts, though this is what seems to be widely believed!

[Wrensong]

Hi Joesmum, goodness - secondary hypothyroidism must really complicate things with menopause.  A bit surprised you're feeling slow with quite a high T3 - if mine were that high I'd be running round the room like a headless chicken or burnt out in a gibbering heap on the floor!  Can I ask whether you're on Liothyronine?  Assume so, to have a blood reading that high.  Reason for asking, is that I have a suspicion that the more T3 we have circulating, the quicker HRT hormones are cleared from the body, THOUGH I must stress this is only a hunch from personal experience & I have no evidence for it in terms of research papers to offer up. 

Glad to know you don't need the dreaded progesterone - this should make it simpler to get your HRT sorted.  The nausea is horrible - is it stopping you eating - as this would presumably add to your feelings of having no energy?

Little House on the Prairie eh?  Enough to make anyone sob, from what I remember!!  My latest lump in the throat is not a goitre, but suppressed blubbing at the inexplicable decline of our 25 year old lemon tree, now bigger than me & grown from seed - can't bear to think it might croak it after so much nurturing.  How pathetic is that?!

I hope you soon feel so much better for the Oestrogel.  Let us know how you get on & if you feel worn out meanwhile, try to get as much rest as you can (often easier said than done, I know) as it sounds as though your body needs it.

[Hurdity]

Hi Joesmum

I know we've spoken before but I can't remember if you are on testosterone too - as without ovaries you won't be producing very much? I know that it's best for oestrogen levels to be healthy before introducing T but just a thought once you have managed to get oestrogen to a better level. Is there any reason not to increase the patch? I mean I am on 62.5 mcg and when on 50 mcg my levels were 200 pmol/l +.  The thing is even though post-meno I still have my ovaries so my levels are not just due to the patch - hence you would need a much higher dose without ovaries even to achieve this level if you see what I mean. I can't explain why your levels dropped though even on the same patch if it is so long since your op? As Wrensong says it could well be due to thyroid  and I know nothing about this!

Hope you feel better soon

Hurdity x

[Rhiner]

Hi Joesmum, Just read your post, I am without ovaries too and I am on a 75mcg patch with levels of only 115.  I had a blip around Xmas time where it felt as if my oestrogen had dropped, that is when I had my levels checked (don't know what they were before this).  The 'low E' symptoms lasted around 6 weeks before normality resumed and I just rode it out.  I am not on testosterone, found I have not needed it, energy levels etc as they were before BSO now.

Hope this helps a little,
Rhiner

[Annie0710]

Thinking out loud here.  I haven't had hormone levels tested for a while now but usually can go by night sweats as a sign oestrogen is low.  This was the case whilst on Tibolone and I was feeling worse as the weeks went on.  It seems I have no ovaries either as the blood supply was heavily compromised years ago after the hysterectomy and they couldn't be seen on a scan despite her going everywhere on my tummy searching.  For me increasing oestrogen is disastrous, it leaves me jittery and a wreck .  Adding testosterone for me balanced me out much better and I'm on 2.5 pumps oestrogel

I just get uncomfortable when I see 'increase oestrogen!' as the answer as it isn't always the case, I was feeling terrible each time I increased after being advised to yet before Peri and after my hysterectomy I was taking max dose oestrogen and still (somewhat) producing my own oestrogen before the ovaries went AWOL

Have you had other bloods done ? Iron, b12, folate?  So many deficiencies give the same symptoms x

[Hurdity]

I understand what you're saying Annie0710 and it's what Annie Evans said to me - that testosterone is the missing link for some women and it can be a mistake to think adding more oestrogen is the answer. However in Joesmum's case both symptoms AND levels suggest insufficient oestrogen ie 112 pmol/l is much lower than the average across the menstrual cycle and in the post-meno range. I know one blood test on its own is not necessarily accurate but if this were roughly the picture then could explain some of the symptoms. However I know from what you and others have said that increasing oestrogen too quickly doesn't work. Any increase does need to be given time to stabilise and sdie effects might be experienced initially. 

I agree with Wrensong also that it does also sound like thyroid is still up the creek maybe?

As Rhiner says it could be just a blip but if it were me I would want to know that my oestrogen levels were consistently up higher than that - at least 200 pmol/l on regular basis - and see how you feel, and then think about testosterone because T deficiency can manifest itself as fatigue, depression (as well as low libido, muscle pain etc especially after exercise).

Joesmum I can't comment on patches v gel because this is so much an individual response to the different methods but if it were me, as you are already on 75 mcg I would try two 50 mcg patches for say a month and see how you get on - what does your doc say?  However if you've had good experience form the gel in the past then go back to that! Also the time (in relation to patch change days) that your blood test is taken might affect the result - so was the low result just before or just after a change and do you use twice weekly patches? Maybe change them every 3 days rather than 3.5?

Sorry I'm just thinking aloud also - probably not much help.

Hurdity x

[dangermouse]

There's also the phenomenon of exogenous hormones lowering our own levels. This is how the pill works in controlling oestrogen levels where you take a high dose and the brain notes large amounts of the hormone and lowers its own production on the negative feedback loop.

What we don't know is at what point this kicks in and I know if I take too much progesterone my own levels reduce.

[Hurdity]

I think this only happens when you still have a cycle - the hypo....pituitary.... axis - ie that exogenous oestrogen suppresses the feedback loops If you have no ovaries or are post-menopausal this doesn't apply as far as I know, because it is the endocrine feedback mechanisms that control the cycle relating to ovulation. I can't see how taking progesterone can affect your own progesterone levels - only if ovulation is suppressed and therefore the corpus luteum is not formed and large quantities of progesterone not produced?

Hurdity x

[Rhiner]

Hi Joesmum,
Yes we do have identical levels of E!  I have no tiredness now, things did take a while to settle. For me it was more feeling very faint (could do very little before feeling that I was about to pass out), very foggy head and anxiety./feeling low. Now I feel the same as before BSO and HRT, same energy levels etc.  I had been 0n 75mcg for 6 months when some symptoms returned, which Im convinced was low E, I was also ill at the time which can use up more E. After around 6 weeks normality returned, but those 6 weeks were pretty bad.  That is when I had my E level checked.

As I think it was Annie said, too much E can also be an issue, made me wake after about 2 hours sleep and not be able to sleep again (which is how I got on Femoston, after about 6 weeks, i.e. once my E levels had built up again after 2 weeks no HRT post BSO).  This is when I switched to transdermal.

Maybe as others have said, you need a bit of Testosterone to help with the tiredness.

Rhiner

[donnacrichton]

I had level lower than 20 on a 50mcg patch. I have slowly increased and bow on 150mcg.  Things were very up and down so consultant advised me to put patches on my thigh and not buttocks. That was 3 weeks ago and could feel levels rising. I had been replacing them every 3rd day not 3.5 until this week and thought I would go for every 3.5. Oh my within 5 days it has dropped massively I've had silent tears for over 12 hour now and burning skin feel like I am back to square one. Back to every 3rd day from now. Anyone know how long before your body should settle into a dose. I've done 150mcg since early July and on thigh with that dose for 3 week?