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[Night_Owl]

I'm finding the 6 weekly use of Utrogestan 100mg x 10 nights, v-route, is proving even more difficult to take as time goes on - the prog intolerance seems to have gone to a new, even more ghastly level (if that's possible!).

Now I feel VERY ill for the whole 10 days, right from day 1, it's toxic to my brain/biochemistry - can hardly get out of bed or move in the mornings (not good at the best of times) - the diuretic effect is even stronger with rushing to the loo all day - and up and down all night, pouring with sweat at night, the worst black depression, anxiety, my parking/driving gets so much worse and dithery, had a few near misses -  I'm wondering if the prog is really affecting my kidneys and how on earth will I be able to manage all of this on-going.

So feel like throwing in the towel but know I will feel so much worse without the estrogen patch, hyster is not an option I want to pursue.

Will once again discuss all this at next Meno clinic appointment - but know there is no real answer to prog intolerance.

Maybe I'll see if I can go down to HALF the current 25 patch with no progesterone at all, just yearly scans - but then the lower dose will be more or less ineffective and migraines could worsen (as happened before when I reduced).

Round and round in ever decreasing circles ...

As with any medication, can the body become even less able to process the prog as you age ... what do you think ... anybody struggling with similar issues ... would appreciate any thoughts, comments.

J x

[Mary G]

I can completely relate to everything you have said, that stuff is like poison to some women.  The longer you take it, the worse the side effects and don't think it ends just because you no longer have any progesterone in your system, I am convinced from my own experience that the changes the Utrogestan causes i.e. changes to the way the brain receptors work, can take a very long time to revert back to normal.  I know this because I sometimes have a migraine a long time after the last capsule and then feel completely normal and migraine free until the next time I subject myself to Utrogestan.  On months when I have only taken 1 or 2 x 100mg capsules, I have not had any side effects at all, they only kick in after 4 capsules.

Big question, are you post menopause?  If so, then why not try the new progesterone free Duavive?  There is a thread with more information about it on here.  I am going to trial it after my next Utrogestan phase and will report back on here.  Don't be put off by the fact that it contains conjugated oestrogen - if it works, who cares?  I will also be trialling the SERM part of Duavive (Bazedoxifene which deactivates the womb receptors) with two pumps of Oestrogel and then decide which I prefer - I will be having regular scans thoughout and I am doing this at my own risk.

Please think about changing to Duavive, I think it could work well for you.  It is expensive (I paid €35.00 OTC in Spain) but you should be able to swing it on the NHS with your background particularly as you are on the verge of giving up on HRT altogether.

Let's hope the new generation of HRT is just around the corner because it is unacceptable for women to have to put up with these horrendous side effects.

[Night_Owl]

Mary - thanks so much for your post. 

Yes! - the longer you take prog, the side effects can become more 'cumulative' (for susceptible women) and even the lower Utro 100mg dose is way too high.

Remember seeing on here a while ago - a comment that prog can be stored in the liver (+ other organs?).  It definitely seems to take a longer time to clear out from my system, if at all.  If I'm honest, I never feel well these days.

Here's the evidence: 
* Used to feel better as soon as I stopped taking it - not so now. 
* Used to be 'okay-ish' up until c. day 4 and somewhat energised - not so now.
* From capsule 1, I feel dreadful - it's instant, drowsy within 10 minutes of insertion then wired up meerkat insomnia at c.4am. 
* Definitely does not stay 'local' to the uterus area, it goes straight to the brain/neurotransmitters.
* Instantly messes with blood sugar levels - hunger. 
* Now: more or less guaranteed migraine at day 7.

And I'm also convinced that the effect it has on the neurotransmitters can be long lasting - maybe what I'm experiencing is a stage now where the prog is always stored in my system after many years' use -  and then I get a horrible top-up every 6 weeks that my body can't cope with.  Guess the only way to tell would be via a blood test.

Would so love not to take HRT of any description but know that is not realistic (migraine, bone health, VA, etc etc).  Now on point of asking GP for Prozac 5mg - although when I tried it previously it turned me into a spaced out, glassy eyed zombie - always have medication sensitivities.

Thanks for the suggestion re Duavee.  The Meno Clinic placed me on the trial waiting list however I pulled out as I couldn't face taking conjugated estrogen.  I'm c.10 years post meno - at 44 periods stopped - peri for a long time but didn't realise it.

So, Bazedoxifene is available separately, never heard of that - maybe I could trial that alongside the patch - will ask about this at clinic.

Look forward to reading your feedback - hope it works for you. 


J x

[Mary G]

Night_Owl, you really have hit the nail right on the head, your description of the effects of Utrogestan is perfect and only a fellow sufferer could really understand how it feels.  It definitely has a cumulative effect and the side effects last longer and longer each time - same thing happened to me with norethisterone.  There is nothing I would like more than to see the back of that stuff.

First of all, try not to be put off by the conjugated oestrogen in Duavive.  My understanding is that is was the synthetic progesterone component in the old school combined HRT that caused in the increased BC risk.  Apparently Duavive is proving to be very successful for progesterone intolerant women so it has to be worth a try at least.

Bazadoxifene is available separately but I don't think you will be able to get anyone to prescribe it with a separate bio identical oestrogen for HRT purposes - yet.  However, you could ask and see what kind of reaction you get.  This is something I am trialling myself at my own risk and I am taking full responsibility for it.  I bought Bazedoxifene separately in Spain and intend to try Baze/Oestrogel and then Duavive proper and see which one works best.  I have regular scans and will be able to gauge lining measurement etc from the results. 

I am quite happy to be a guinea pig for the Baze/Oestrogel regime rather than wait for the outcome of endless studies - I really can't stand Utrogestan for much longer and I don't have that much time before having to decide on a hysterectomy. 

Desperate circumstances call for desperate measures. 

By the way, Bazedoxifene is prescribed for the prevention of osteoporosis and for breast cancer patients because it diverts oestrogen away from the breasts.

[Hurdity]

Hi Night_Owl

Good to hear from you but SO sorry to hear you are still suffering after all these years. I can't really add anything to Mary G's post - I was going to suggest Duavive myself although I know you don't like the idea of the horse oestrogens, and also of course it's in tablet form. I think it's a good idea to ask at the meno clinic about the possibility of separate oestrogen and the Bazedoxefine. Are you still under Panay's team because surely he will be trying out various regimes and especially something like that which would make so much sense to so many women?

The other thing I recommend as part of your current regime and not sure if you've tried this - and it's not based on any studies of any sort - but does seem to improve things for me - is to increase the Vagifem to daily, the week before I start the Utrogestan - my theory being that less will be absorbed through the vaginal walls (as they are plumped up) and most will go to the uterus where it is needed. I try to remember to use it daily for a week before the Utro and then whenever I remember in the morning (I try to leave about 12 hours between the two insertions!) during the course of Utro.

Just a thought.

My reaction to utrogestan seems to vary so much. I had a mild but persistent migraine ( 3 days) this time and felt tired and lethargic almost from day 1 but sometimes after the initial morning exhaustion for a couple of days generally feel OK. While taking it I find it even more difficult to wake in the morning and sleep very heavily (despite a bit of bladder irritation which wakes me) and to stir myself. Each cycle I wonder how much longer I'll take it - but then for the next few weeks on oestrogen only I'm fine and forget about it until the next time 

Take care Night_Owl and let us know what you decide.



Hurdity x

[Night_Owl]

Thanks to both of you for taking the time to reply - and for useful suggestions.

Definitely desperate measures MaryG.  You are very brave to try out Baze as a guinea pig and taking full responsibility, I hope it goes well for you.  I know what you mean, I can't stand the thought of Utro EVER again.  The clinic often suggest hyster or coming off altogether - as I'm in that category of 'difficult (impossible) to treat' patients. A while back I tried Femarelle on the clinic recommendation but it gave the most frightening vertigo migraines.  Please do let us know how you get on.

Can hardly string a sentence together, feeling so very low and weepy.  Maybe I'm in a worse state as it's the 3 year anniversary of my dear mum's death and Utro is casting an even darker shadow on neurotransmitters than usual.

That's the thing Hurdity, each cycle you wonder ... crikey, I can't keep putting myself through this - feeling very ill every 6 weeks is so rubbish.  I'm still under Panay's clinic so will be asking about Baze at next appt.  The increase of VF is a good idea and something that I've thought about but never got around to it - 10mcg twice weekly doesn't really seem to be sufficient to thicken the walls.  I'm going to try this next Utro use, and in the meantime may increase it to 3 x weekly on-going as bladder is playing up more these days - have a little bit of hope there, so thank you for mentioning it.

Thanks again - at least some hope and possibilities.

J x