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[WANDERER2]

Good morning ladies.

A very long time since I posted, but I have always found your advise such a comfort and hoping you can help again!

Six years ago I had the most awful avalanche of symptoms that arrived so quickly and forcefully that I nearly had a mental and physical breakdown. I was 53 at the time and thought that I was the loneliest and weirdest person in the world until I found this site. With the help of a lovely female GP, who recommended HRT and an anxiety prescription, and help on this forum, I came to understand what was happening, and slowly came to terms with it all, eventually weaning myself off the HRT and medication, although I felt the HRT didn't have a huge impact, it was Evorel Conti. But just calming down seem to help.

Now forward a year, I cannot understand what is happening! I am nearly 60, for goodness sake, and flushes have returned, pelvic pain and atrophy are making my lower half as sore as hell, and worst of all, something I didn't have before, my sleep is terrible! Hours spent awake, or just dozing. I just don't understand it. I have an appointment to see my GP again, but as it has been 6 years since I had a period, I just wonder if anyone has had this happen to them?

Would at this late stage be any benefit from trying a different HRT?

I am just about to retire and feel like crap again!

Speak soon PLEASE!

WANDERER2 XXX

[Taz2]

Hi Wanderer. Sorry to hear that you are suffering again but it is to be expected in some ways. As the oestrogen levels continue to decline then symptoms can worsen for some women. The mood swings of perimenopause tend to disappear but the other symptoms such as VA and flushes are governed by oestrogen levels.

Sixty is often seen as the cut off date for HRT so I'd say, if you want to try HRT again, then ask your GP as soon as possible. Patch or gel HRT is the way to go as after the age of 60 they are less risky in terms of stroke and heart attack (the risk is still small). Do you mind sharing why you decided to discontinue with the HRT? I'm 63 and have been on it almost continuously for ten years. If I stop then the flushes/sweats/VA/sleep problems all come back so I'm hoping I can stay on it for as long as possible.

You mention pelvic pain and I wonder if you have had this checked out by your GP?

Don't feel alone - there are lots of women on here who will identify with how you are feeling.

Taz x 

[WANDERER2]

HI Taz2, lovely to hear from you after such a long time! You are right, maybe I was a bit hasty stopping the HRT. It was just that I didn't feel the GREAT relief that other women have said that they have. I certainly didn't feel "like my old self"! It seemed that there was wasn't a lot of choice for the "older" menopausees in the HRT field, only about 2 I think. I did try a stronger dose of Evorel, but promptly started having periods again, along with all the cramping etc..

You asked about the pelvic pain, yes it has all been checked out, and all fine. It is the pelvic floor muscles contracting, and it is the same with my thigh and back muscles. I have tried accupuncture, chiropractors, and osteopaths, but no long-term help sadly as the discs and muscles have degenerated.

My GP has said that you can stay on HRT as long as you like, as it does give you some coronary and bone protection, and good quality of life! Which HRT are you on Taz2?

Many thanks.

WANDERER2 XX

[Taz2]

I too have never felt like my old self on HRT but it has kept the worst symptoms at bay. I also had pelvic cramping if I stopped HRT and this was the ligaments weakening apparently. I subsequently went on to have a hyster for prolapse and gynae was quite adamant that if I had not had to take a year off HRT (a worried doctor) then I could have avoided the prolapse worsening. If I'm late with changing my patch I become very sore front to back so to speak within a few days so I do think the oestrogen is having a beneficial effect.

I'm on Evorel but due to having had the hyster I don't need progesterone (Yippee!) so it is the oestrogen only patch. You could ask for Evorel Conti if you got on with that last time or there is also FemSeven conti which has a kinder progesterone than Evorel. There is also the possibility of a gel and separate progesterone but I am not really that knowledgeable on that but I'm sure someone else will be along soon with advice. As with any conti HRT you may have breakthrough bleeding for the first six months so don't be worried if that happens.

It's great that your doc is supportive. Sixty is often seen as the age when the heart protection stops but I think between 50 and 60 benefits outweigh the risks, 60 to 70 they are equal and post 70 the risks become more noticeable. Not sure where I read that though!

Taz x

[Hurdity]

Taz - it was on here! :
https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/balance.php

Hi there Wanderer - I remember you too!

You are experiencing these symptoms now because it is a year since you stopped the HRT and your body is reacting once more to the decreased oestrogen. Although you have been through the menopause as Taz says some women continue to get flushes and sweats and other symptoms for years and they reappear when they stop.

The other thing is you were on continuous combined HRT so that could have prevented you from really experiencing the benefits of replacement oestrogen, due to continuous low-grade progestogenic side effects. I am mid 60's and have been taking HRT for over 10 years but have almost always remained on a cycle (longer than 4 weeks with the OK from my doc) - so I get 4-6 weeks of oestrogen only before introducing progesterone for 12 days - but I have to put up with a withdrawal bleed. Not all women would want to countenance this in their 60's - but for me the lesser of the two evils - I don;t get the permanent depressive effect of progesterone but the benefit of oestrogen

Like Taz I also have never felt like my old self - I don't think anyone can. After all when we are young we are either menstruating - so our hormones have wonderful peaks when we are enthusiastic and excited, and troughs when we might feel tired, irritable and temporarily depressed. At other times we might be pregnant (very high doses of hormones) or breast-feeding - fewer hormones but pre-occupied with babies!). Once post-meno our hormones are more or less stable so we are on an even keel - so a bit more boring - but as long as you have sufficient - then on balance remaining positive and upbeat, not low in mood and anxious.

I agree with Taz - I would hot foot back to GP and get back on it asap - after all you have only been off it for a year and should not have any damage to blood vessels etc.  If you want continuous combined HRT still then either Taz's suggestion of Femseven or patch oestrogen (I use Estradot - brilliant!) with separate progestogen ( either Provera, or Utrogestan). Alternatively you could use gel but I think in your case a patch would be best as this is what you were used to - perhaps start again with half and work up to a full one?

The oestrogen only hRT types are listed here:
https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/treatafter.php

.. the progestogens here:
https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/to_progestogens.php

continuous combined HRT here:
https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/postmeno.php

Great to have a sympathetic GP

Hurdity x

[CLKD]

However, I feel exactly like my 'old' self, who ever she was.  It's called The Change and some ladies will find it harder to re-discover who they
were ;-).

[linz57]

Hello again ladies, long time since I last  posted but I've had so many upsets since the beginning of this year and not felt my usual upbeat self.
However, I have still lurked around occasionally and today I saw your post wanderer2 and I felt I had to respond.
I turn 60 in October and until 10 weeks ago I was on a continue hrt regime, I had the odd problem but generally felt good on it. However, earlier this summer a transvaginal scan revealed three tiny fibroids so my doctor took me off the hrt and put me back onto Vagifem.
The first 6 weeks were ok but now I'm suffering big time. The flushes and insomnia are awful and my anxiety is horrendous, it's so bad I have been getting what I can only describe as a restless abdomen and twitching feet when I'm in bed. It's an uncontrollable urge to keep moving and the feeling of unease is hard to describe. I am now also having what I call " popcorn legs" during the day when my legs are at rest. I'm putting it all down to extreme anxiety caused by too sudden a drop in my hormones and a doctor I saw yesterday agrees. He has put me on Zopiclone for 14 days, just to give my system a much needed rest in the night. After that, god knows what he will suggest but I am waiting for my own female doctor to return from her holiday and I will be straight over there to ask to be put back onto the hrt. Im sure I've read that there is a drug that can be taken alongside hrt to reduce the fibroids). Maybe if I had come off gradually things might not have been so extreme, but I cannot go on like this, my symptoms weren't this severe even before starting the hrt and I hate feeling scared.
So Wanderer2, I think we both sound like we need to get back onto the hormones and let's hope we don't get blocked from doing so. I know there are risks but ye gods, going along like this is just miserable.
Sorry if this is rambling but the Zopiclone is making my thought process a bit fuddled right now.

[WANDERER2]

Phew! Knew you would help! Hello Hurdity, lovely to hear from you again! I too have always had the "popcorn legs", really bad 6 years ago but not so bad now.

I am so confused, why do we need progesterone now when we have no periods? And why am I suddenly not sleeping, even at my worst I slept OK.  So confused!

WANDERER2 XXX

[nissa11]

Hi there all!  Yes, I have also been fine on Combined HRT for several years but at 58 just recently noticed a return of 'night sweats', exhaustion, depression, severe hip pain causing me to walk with a limp and as I am already on HRT this is quite annoying. Doctors are so difficult to get in touch with for an appointment but I'm tempted to up my dose of HRT as I am on quite a low dose.

I am so fed up about this as I felt so well over the summer and was exercising more and felt stronger. Do you think it's normal to have increasing symptoms so late on?

[jaycee]

I was very interested to read these comments, i am new here, but i can identify with some comments
I suffer still with hot flushes, not as bad as before, but my mother and sister also, my mother was in her 80s when she was still having sweats and flushes
My worst problem at the moment, in fact for a long time after finishing HRT i havent slept well at all
I wake up feeling anxious, but dont know why really
I was on livial, and felt great, lots of energy, good sleep and now my hair is thinning, but my skin is very dry,and suffering with a bad case of cystitis,
I have a new partner and was told it could be caused by that, vaginal dryness
I would be interested to know if anyone has been refused by their Dr at this late stage for going back onto HRT and i now believe there is no upper age limit,it used to be 60

[nissa11]

Hi jaycee,
I did mention the symptoms to my GP but she seemed to think that it was the 'weather'! It is abnormally warm for september/october.
However, I did try having an extra tablet in the evening, doubling my dose, a couple of times a week and it definately did help my symptoms.
I'm a bit worried about upping the dose permanently as it might be harder to come off but at the moment I am awake most of the night, am bloating and putting on weight, feel exhausted all the time (despite LOTS of exercise) and generally feel awful. The depression is the worst...I have now been depressed for nearly a decade and anti-depressants just made me FAT (which is what they don't tell you - it took years to lose the weight they made me put on...and this happened to my husband too, just for the record, when he was on them).
I am SO fed up with the backward step in the last few months and don't know WHAT to do. I definately DON'T trust doctors!!!
 

[CLKD]

If any of you have dry vaginas, hot foot it to the Practice Nurse and ask for treatment for vaginal atrophy which will need to be used for the rest of your Life.  Symptoms mimic urine infection-type feelings so treatment for VA is essential.  There are several threads on here about it.

[jaycee]

Hi Nissa, just seen your update, my Dr has let me go back onto Livial, also having Vagifem,
I was suddenly having night sweats again ,never had them before even in the hottest weather
I dont know how the livial will affect me yet,only been on them for 2 weeks, but they are safer for post menopausal women,
Not sure about the vagifem yet, as i seem to have got thrush now, or maybe not, but very itchy down there,
It could be because i started using panty liners as the vagifem seemed to leak down a bit, but maybe i wasnt putting it high enough up,and might be allergic to something in the liners,
I was on livial before and loved it,
If you look at reviews for it ,most women rate it very highly
I hope your Dr will be sympathetic to you
I  have noticed that my anxiety seems to have lessened,i used to wake up feeling anxious
Please let us know how you get on,
I am in my early 70s by the way, just mention the NICE report,im sure it helped in my case with Dr

[nissa11]

Thanks jaycee. My current GP seems to think Livial wouldn't be "as effective" as the HRT I'm already on (Low dose Kliovance) but I think it's about money. It wouldn't be the first time 'money' has come up in relation to HRT.
Back when I was 53 I saw a lady GP because I was so fed up with the HRT patches prescribed by a male GP I was seeing. He told me that the dual HRT patches wouldn't be available as the ladies in europe would probably get them first. When I told my lovely lady GP she mouthed the words "money" to me. She was wonderful and put me on tablets and was VERY supportive.
Because I have moved house twice in the last few years (don't ask) I am now at a different surgery. Although the lady GP I have seen does seem quite supportive as I say she has said 'Livial' wouldn't be as effective as what I'm on. My view is that it's much more expensive (as seen on Menopause Matters page to do with HRT preparations).
I'm really suffering again though and care less about the so-called risks of HRT than feeling like a human being again. I know this sounds silly but I'm particularly fed up with my boobs, which are enormous!...well much bigger than they were. As far as I know the Kliovance I'm on gets its progesterone element from testosterone, which apparently affects the density of your breasts. I am wondering if Livial would be as bad as it mimicks natural hormones more closely, apparently.
Which NICE report should I quote please?
Thanks for your support - glad I'm not on my own.
 

[nissa11]

I'm a bit concerned about the other comments on Livial causing endometrial thickening.
I always feel like 'apologising' for still having a womb when talking to GP's who say I need progesterone to keep the lining thin.
Has anybody else been told about the endometrial thickening effect of Livial, i was hoping to try again to request it at the docs soon.