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[Pollyanna]

I used to know the comparative measurements of oestrogel to patches, but I will need to be reminded please ladies, if any of you know.   

If one pump of estrogel is 0.75mg per day, what would that be in a patch (in micrograms), over three days?   

I can't find any tables on line to help with this as a comparison and so I'd be grateful if any one does know, you could pass it on.   

Think two pumps per day is a wee bit too much for me as, paradoxically, I'm getting flushes and sweats now and I've hardly ever had those through the whole of my menopause. 

Thank you. 

[Annie0710]

Start lower and work up depending on symptoms.  I started my gel on 1 pump, then to 2 now on 2.5

[Salad]

Probably not correct but I assumed 1 pump (lowest dose) = a 25mcg patch (lowest dose) 

[Pollyanna]

Hi Annie

I should have been clearer.  I know how to titrate up (or down) depending on how I'm feeling.  For example I started on 2 pumps but am sweating like a good un' and hot flushes like crazy.   Interesting as at 57, and since surgical menopause 9 years ago, I have never had flushes or sweats.  So, I'm going to conclude from the symptoms I'm experiencing, 2 pumps is too high for now.   

No.. .my question was about the measurements.    I have looked on line for some kind of chart so that I can work out the equivalent.   I just want to understand what I'm taking in now, as opposed to what I was having before.

so... that was my question.   

Don't need advice as to use age.   I'm a big girl.... and    xx

[Annie0710]

I wasn't suggesting you didn't know how to increase/decrease but as it's a slightly different method of application between patches and gel (absorption-wise maybe) I wonder whether it's worth thinking scientifically about measurements but go by symptoms

[Hurdity]

I agree with Annie0710 - there is no exact equivalence due to the different methods of absorption and wide individual variation and the figures are only an average - so  best to approximate the equivalent 9 in terms of low medium and high - and then do the finer adjustments/tweaking according to symptoms - but adjust slowly!

I am not clear what were you on before? I presume you were on patches - so what dose was that 50 75 or 100 maybe? The approx dosage is given in the info here: https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/treatafter.php though annoyingly it doesn't give this for gel - but I think 1 pump ( of estrogel) is low, 2 is medium and 4 is high with 3 being somewhere in between depending how you absorb it!

Weirdly once when I tried to increase my oestrogen ( think I tried 50 - 75) I started to get flushes which is not what you would expect! When I more recently increased to 62.5 this didn't happen. Adding oestrogen exogenously seems to behave very differently from our own hormonal mix - eg we don't get flushes at ovulation when our oestrogen zooms up way higher than patches or gel!

Hurdity x

[Pollyanna]

Thanks ladies. 

I was only interested in knowing the equivalent.  I seem to remember a doctor in Bristol telling me the gel/patch equivalent but I can't remember it now and obviously couldn't find it anywhere.   Like many on here, I'm fed up with messing about with this whole thing.    It is only because my body seems to be crying out for something different, that my GP tried me on Tibolone.  Even though I was only on it for 5 weeks, that was enough for me.  I was starting to gain a lot of weight and my mood was flat, not usual for me.   The clincher though was the breast problem.  The new mix of hormones caused a very painful mass in my left breast.   I was instructed to stop the Tibolone due to this.   

So, as my body was previously not absorbing oestrogen from patches.  (this was feedback from the specialist I saw a few weeks ago), and it is common in some women, I'm on oestrogel.  My GP is also going to get me some testosterone gel which I'm looking forward to trying.  Obviously very knowledgeable and sensible about the amounts etc.   

I know some ladies don't hold with the 'unopposed' hormone thing, but three specialists I've seen now, have all said that if your body is only absorbing oestrogen HRT, you will get paradoxical symptoms.... hot flushes, hair loss, irritability etc.  I had thought it was because I had too high or low a dose, but it's because it's being used on it's own.   

Anyway, it's all trial and error isn't it?   I seem to be spending a fortune on prescriptions though and hate wasting things.   I could start a pharmacy.... haha. 

Oh and the spiky hair growth on my chin has started again.  That is very interesting as the compounded hormones helped that.   Oestrogen dominance has made it worse.

Oh, to be a man...

[Annie0710]

You may feel the difference once you start the testosterone.  I didn't feel good on oestrogen alone but since starting oestrogel and testosterone gel I'm feeling much more balanced.  My thinned hair is thickening up again, not like it was but definitely better.  I've got some get up and go and a spring back in my step

[Pollyanna]

That sounds great Annie.  I'm keeping fingers crossed.

I woke up drenched in the middle of the night.  Never had that before.

I read somewhere on hear that some women had itchy scalps at the same time of shedding hair.  I've just started to get that too.

Yes, oestrogen alone isn't great for me.

I did read your history before but could you remind me please......was your GP able to get testosterone gel for you, or did she have to refer you to someone?
My GP is being more helpful now and says that t gel can't be prescribed by her, but she's contacting Jan Brockie, the nurse specialist I saw, as she will be able to.

I'm hoping so anyway.  I read that some women are only offered t implants.

X

[Annie0710]

Yes itching for me was always leading to hair thinning/loss, I noticed the cycle after about the 3rd bout of itchy scalp.  Nizoral shampoo is great for calming the itching

Re:testosterone, I'd been asking for over a year but was always refused.  Then gp sent me for a scan to check my ovaries and they were gone so I used that info to fight harder for testosterone.  Gp wanted to help but admitted she had no experience so asked a gynae, who came back really quick that she recommends Tibolone or testosterone gel.  Tried the Tibolone but couldn't get the balance right.  Testim gel didn't seem to work for me but Tostran is (it's higher concentrated than Testim)

[Pollyanna]

Annie..... gosh, that's really interesting.   We seem to have a few experiences in common.  I've seen Nizoral, but hadn't tried it.  I think I'll try it.   

I remember my GP saying, only last week that she is a 'primary level' prescriber.    Specialists/consultants are 'secondary level' prescribers and so they can are able to get other drugs... (I'm been ironic here but you get my drift, I'm sure). 

Thanks for the heads up on Tostran, as opposed to Testim.  You'd think they would be be of equal concentration.   Are they meant to be? 

I must say, I'm quite excited at the prospect of getting my motivation back to what it was.   I know it's hormonal. 

And.... I'm shocked that your ovaries have disappeared.   How come?  Thought at a certain age they just hung about, somewhat redundant.   Had no idea they dissolved.   

[Annie0710]

I was being prescribed Testim and on one occasion when I picked the script up the package was Tostran.  I'd heard it was stronger so thought I'd give it a go and have to say I really do notice the difference.  Menopause left me with social anxiety and very low self esteem and wellbeing (as well as the libido)
Now in recent weeks I've been out and about on my own and quite upbeat.  My daughter only said this week it's like she's got her mum back.

Ovaries: I had a hysterectomy when I was 32, they say the blood supply to the ovaries were severed and I started menopause so was put on oral oestrogen max dose.  All was hunky dory until I reached 45 and different symptoms developed, more emotional than physical but I did ache all over.  Dr said because the ovaries haven't worked properly for years and with hardly any blood supply they've shrivelled and dissolved.  So I guess I was kind of in surgical menopause at 45, bloods came back at age 48 as post meno

[Pollyanna]

Annie.... thank you for sharing your more personal information.   I'm a great believer in being open about feelings as we are all human and we all go through experiences, whether the underlying cause is physiological, or otherwise.    I'm a psychologist and trained in counselling.   My passion and knowledge base is in this field and I can tell you that I too have been through awful anxiety (mine was PTSD) and more laterly, anxiety triggered by hormonal imbalance.   I can totally 'get' what you must have been through. 

Yes, if you and those close to you, see you change and lose your joie de vivre, it can be upsetting for them.  My daughter is 30 and even though we are close, she didn't know how to be with me, when I was highly anxious and had isolated myself at home.  I have always been independent, very confident and.... funny.   Whereas at the moment, I am totally different.  Horrible, isn't it?   And self esteem is affected in menopause.  It's well documented. 

I most certainly didn't know that about ovaries.  I just knew that they were fairly worthless after a certain age, particularly after hysterectomy.   I must do some scientific research to read more, on that. 

I'm hoping for good things with that T gel.  x

[Annie0710]

We sound similar.  I was always fun loving, just got on with things, never suffered anxiety apart from a short spell during puberty but had no idea st the time it was anxiety or hormone driven.  If things got tough I would just dust myself down but during this 2nd menopause (a gynaecologist referred to it as a 2nd one) it totally floored me, physically and very emotionally.  I don't want this feeling to go, I'm finding myself again after 5 years of hell.  I'd withdrawn from everyone, relatives included and only found peace when at home, everything, every place and everybody scared me.  X

[Pollyanna]

Gosh Annie.... I too have had around 4 years of being in an abyss.   I developed what was diagnosed (?) as CFS but I think it was my endocrine system.   GP's did every blood test imaginable.  Even though I was ill, I was still able to be assertive and insisted that they explore more.   

I was unable to leave my bed for the best part of a year.   I mean that I was bed bound for a lot of that time.   I was depressed beyond belief.  I thought I was dying... no energy.  Muscles weren't working and my weight dropped so much.  I've always been small anyway but I went down to 7 stone.   I looked awful, hair falling out, black rings around eyes, grey skin.   D

I can't believe I got through that now.  I have no family other than my daughter, who doesn't live near me.   There was no one.   Not a soul.   

It scares me to think I could get like that again.   At the time, the doctor I had, didn't have a clue and so the label of CFS was given to me.   I was referred to neurologists, endocrinologists.... every visit gave me hope that someone could give a definitive diagnosis but... nothing.   

I was unable to work and survived on savings.  It upsets me now to remember how bad things were, and how alone I was.   

Yes.... I've withdrawn because if ever I trusted anyone enough to tell them about how ill I was, I was only judged or given unsolicited advice.  And, when you're ill, you simply don't have the strength to defend yourself.   Easier to hide away.

Yep, I soooo get you.   x