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[Rosie500]

Just a quick question - I have just changed from taking utrogestan 100mg 25/28 to 200mg 12/28. I'm 4 days into the non-prog stage and feel terrible - down etc. However it is quite possible this is wholly a result of some fairly big family revelations yesterday. Ideally I would like to dismiss any suspicion it might be the influence of (lack of) hormones. I had always understood most women felt better while not taking utrogestan which was one reason I was testing the different regime! If it is unlikely to be hormone related then I can concentrate on tackling my head and develop more strategies to cope with relatives.

Thank you!

[Lizab]

Search the forum for progesterone withdrawal or utrogestan withdrawal. It seems to be very common to feel down after stopping the progesterone. For me, I usually feel it about day 4 or 5 after stopping. I also begin to feel bad in a different way about 4 to 5 days in on the progesterone, so I'm not getting a lot of good days in the month right now. I think it's the change in hormone level, up or down, that makes us feel off.

[dangermouse]

It depends if you need it or not. Progesterone withdrawal can be very severe and initial use can indirectly increase oestrogen levels a few days into it due to it the rebalancing allowing dormant oestrogen receptors to wake up.

I only take progesterone and know how hard it's been getting my body used to it to finally have some great effects but with the stopping and starting of when you take it non continuously with oestrogen it may never go beyond the stimulation stage and I think a lot of women here struggle with it. I would go back to the lower dose for more days so you have less volatility.

[Rosie500]

Thank you for that, it was unexpected to feel so down and I do think "life" has at least something to do with it but I do feel "hormonal" too. I will carry on with the 200mg regime for a couple of cycles more and see what happens. Next time I am due to stop I have a quiet few days lined up and I will avoid all contact with relatives so it will become apparent if it is a hormonal thing or not. If so I'll go back to the other option. I'd just got it in my head that people tended to feel bad while taking it but reaction to change in levels does make sense.

[Hurdity]

Hi Rosie500

Not everyone feels bad while taking the prog but as Lizab says progesterone withdrawal is a common phenomenon which most womnen experience every month during their menstural cycle - it is what you experience as pms the few days before your period ( and sometimes the first couple of days of it).

It is not a question of needing progesterone to stop you feeling like this - but the feelings are just a consequence of withdrawing it and the physiological changes which occur. Most women end up feeling much better once the progesterone has gone from the system. Those of us who are on a longer cycle for example ( and post-menopausal) put up with a few days of progesterone withdrawal symptoms for the sake of several weeks of oestrogen only - bliss! if you are on a 28 day cycle as Lizab says - this means sometimes you don't get many good days if you feel rough while taking the prog too.

Dangermouse - I have read many times in scientific articles that progesterone receptors are activated in the presence of oestrogen not vice versa - which makes sense because biologically we don't need extra progesterone unless we have lots of extra oestrogen (ie in pregnancy).  . Do you have further information - eg any links to articles please? Ta!

Hurdity x

[dangermouse]

Sorry I don't have any links (probably to do with a lack of research as it's natural hormones and not drugs) but was told this by an endocrinologist and have also lived it so I can say it 100% happened to me. Doing so much better now I'm up to 4 pumps a day of prog and it's not been easy getting to this point as my migraine nausea, dizziness and mood was untenable around ovulation and very nearly gave up.

It's to do with rebalancing where the hormone you're lacking causes the others that are then too strong to downregulate the receptors in an attempt to redress the balance. When you then start to replenish what is needed the downregulated receptors upregulate and symptoms get worse until you are fully topped up. I suspect this works for low oestrogen too when you add it back and it causes progesterone receptors (and perhaps adrenaline receptors etc.) to wake up.

It's a similar effect to drug withdrawal where you get a rebound effect when you stop as the de-sensitised receptors awaken.

[Rosie500]

Thank you Hurdity. I think I have read too many posts about people being progesterone intolerant so I was rather taken by surprise! I never had PMS back in the day (lucky). My lack of problems with periods and childbirth have caught up with me now. I may just go back to the 25 day regime as I'm fortunate not to be too affected by the utrogestan and I can do without these feelings of despair! I'm pretty sure this is hormonal now and my husband agrees - he says my reactions are reminiscent of the way I was before HRT. Maybe that's a tactful way of saying something else  !

Trial and error, trial and error... Every time I think I am getting my head round HRT something new pops up. As you have said, we are all different. Thank goodness for this forum.

[Tempest]

Dangermouse, I'm liking youre thinking on this!

It's actually very helpful to me - my receptors became 'dormant' and that's why I've had so much trouble with estrogen, so I've been told! (And also estrogen only makes me anxious - again, may be a receptor thing but we'll see)!

[Frankie41]

Hi there

Just jumping onto this thread as I'd like to understand this "down-regulation"/waking up dormant receptors things better.  Dangermouse, how did you work out it was progesterone you need and not estrogen?  Your regime is really interesting because most women in menopause talk about needing more estrogen etc. Can you explain why progesterone receptors (and maybe adrenaline) receptors would up-regulate when adding back estrogen?  And did you then go through a period of transition while your receptors "reawakened" until you felt better?  How long?    What you are describing marries with what Prof Studd has said about feeling worse before you feel better on estrogen.  And might explain why some women feel really anxious on high doses of estrogen?     What I find a bit confusing is how to distinguish symptoms of estrogen excess from 'transition'?

Would be very grateful to hear from anyone who can explain this phenomenon to me! 

[Hurdity]

Rosie500 - you will read more about progesterone intolerance on this forum because those women who tolerate it well and just get the usual prog withdrawal pms as with periods - will not join and not need to post - so this forum is not a representative sample of all women I'm pleased to say! All these HRT types would not be on the market if the majority of women didn't get on with them - since they go through trials before being approved and side effects monitored!

Dangermouse/Frankie - maybe start another thread about the receptors because I don't really understand what dangermouse is saying either - but this is Rosie500's thread.  The whole subject of hormones receptors is extremely complex! 

Hurdity x

[Niamh]

Yes!! Just to add I'm day 5 after stopping utro and had a horrible mood drop today I just posted about it elsewhere! I am prog intolerant so feel awful on it and normally much better as soon as i stop but about day 4/5 just after my period comes I can get the low mood irritable flat feeling X

[Tempest]

I still think we need a thread for surgical menopause ladies, but I digress.......

Time and time again, especially over at another forum called Hystersisters for ladies such as myself in surgical menopause, it has been reported that many, many women feel HORRIBLE when taking estrogen only. At no point in all of our reproductive years did we EVER walk around with just estrogen in our bodies. It drives you crazy, and this has been very well documented for YEARS over at the forum I mentioned. Estrogen and Progesterone work in tandem in the body to produce balance - estrogen is energising, progesterone is calming. Your body is a finely tuned machine that does this job for you throughout your reproductive years, and then menopause hits and things go haywire.

Essentially, HRT is a pretty clumsy replacement for this, unless you get very lucky. That's why so many women post here with the problems they have with HRT.

There is nothing 'puzzling' about women feeling horrible on estrogen only HRT, nor is there anything 'unusual' about women feeling horrible on the progesterone phase of their HRT. As I say, unless you are LUCKY HRT is a clumsy replacement in broad terms for what our bodies can do naturally. Hence why - and this is well documented - so many women abandon HRT altogether after trying everything as the side effects are just unbearable.

We're all individuals, and everyone reacts differently. HRT should fit YOU, you don't need to feel bad if you do not fit IT or if it seems everyone else is doing marvellously on it but you feel rubbish. I think it's very, very important to remember this!

[Menomale]

Well said, Tempest! 
Hello again 

[Tempest]

MENOMALE!!!!!!! I'm so very, very glad you're back!!! Huge welcome!!!! 

[Annie0710]

Well said Tempest.  I can't do oestrogen only.  It worked perfectly for 13 years after my hysterectomy whilst I had a cycle of sorts plodding on in the background.  Suddenly felt like god knows what, bloods show hardly any progesterone yet NO ONE listened to me. Just kept trying to give me higher doses of oestrogen that I couldn't cope with. 

We are all different and require different levels of hormones and sometimes probably need the ones deemed unnecessary ! X