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Menopause Matters magazine ISSUE 81 out now. (Autumn issue, September 2025)

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Author Topic: So HRT IS SAFE after all  (Read 41374 times)

TheDuchess

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Re: So HRT IS SAFE after all
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2015, 04:29:32 PM »

I've been reading all the posts here and as a newbie wanted to add a few comments.

I think it's pointless making comparisons between HRT research and negligence by pharma companies generally. HRT has been around since the 1940s. That's getting on for 80 years. We are learning all the time about the risks and benefits, especially as HRT becomes more individualised, which I understand is the way that certain consultants already work and hope to see all women treated like this in the future. By that I mean lower than standard doses, long cycle, use of bio identical hormones, Mirena as part of it, and so on - anything rather than just handing over a prescription for bog standard HRT pills. It is likely that risks and benefits will change as HRT becomes more tailored to each woman's needs and medical / genetic history - as is the future for cancer drugs too.

It's unlikely I believe that we will see massive trials in the immediate future simply on the basis of funding. The NHS and the MRC do not have funds for this kind of research when there are so many other 'more important' research areas like cancer and gene therapy (stem cells etc.)

That leaves it to the pharma companies to invest, but I think it's unlikely they will do a huge lot more. HRT is very cheap compared to lots of drugs- the wholesale price is actually less than a prescription fee. Even if all menopausal women used HRT it would be a drop in the ocean profit-wise for pharma companies who are focusing on treatment for heart disease, cancer, diabetes, obesity and so on.

I think one factor that has been overlooked in the debate here so far is that of consultants. They are the experts who chair the British Menopause Society and the IMS and they feed their expertise down to GPs. They are able to look at the research and interpret it to give advice to patients. Some have a genuine and active interest in menopause and carry out their own research.

HRT has risks and benefits- like any drug. No drug is risk free- not even aspirin.
The short term symptoms of the menopause don't kill. But long term deprivation of oestrogen especially for younger women, does. There are more women who die from the complications of broken hips- 14000 a year compared to 11000 deaths from breast cancer. The lifetime risk of a hip fracture is 1:6, breast cancer 1:9. These are serious issues and for many women using HRT for an early menopause or throughout their 60s when risks equal benefits, can be a life saver.

At the end of the day, you make a choice. You accept that there is probably a small risk for some women with HRT but it's not clear exactly how much. It may be 1 more case of breast cancer per 1000 women, it may be fewer. It may depend on the type of progesterone used, it may not. This is currently unknown though being researched and discussed amongst consultants in the UK.

As other posters have said, there are far greater risk which we take on a daily basis. It's dangerous to drive a car, or drink more than 1 unit of alcohol a day. 60% of women are overweight and inactive, which are bigger risk factors for breast and uterine cancers, but most women choose to ignore this as it requires willpower and effort to change.

There is no doubt at all though that oestrogen stops bone density falling and builds it up; the evidence for this is clear and no one contests that. It's also clear from much  research so far that HRT started early in menopause can reduce heart disease.

http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e6409

Menopause is natural, sure. But so is heart disease and cancer - they are called DIS-eases. Meaning our body is out of synch and something's gone wrong. As others have pointed out, in the past until around 1900, life expectancy for women was around 46. Many women would still be producing children up to when they died (perhaps in childbirth) so the menopause was not an issue. Women didn't work once they had children (not in professional roles as they were banned once they married) so life was very different. It's important to be kind to each other when talking about HRT because I suspect no woman uses it until she feels she HAS to in order to cope with work, family, and life in general. The last thing we need is other women beating us over the head saying we ought not to use it as it's some kind of vanity drug!

lecture over! Sorry to go on.








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GypsyRoseLee

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Re: So HRT IS SAFE after all
« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2015, 04:41:00 PM »

Thank you Duchess  :thankyou: :thankyou:

I am very surprised, that in 2015, anyone would contest that lack of oestrogen doesn't lead to loss of bone density.

My Mum had a surgical menopause in her early 40s and only took HRT for about 6 months? In her early 50s she had a fall, and broke her wrist. Well I think 'shattered' is a better description? I saw her x-rays! And it wasn't even a nasty fall, more of a smooth slide over to one side, but she put her hand out to stop herself and her wrist just shattered like shrapnel.

Further tests revealed very poor bone density. Exact same thing happened to her twin sister. Post menopausal at 38. No HRT. Tripped up her front door step when she was 49 and broke her ankle. Again tests showed very poor bone density.
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Briony

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Re: So HRT IS SAFE after all
« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2015, 05:27:30 PM »

Duchess, thank you.  :foryou:
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TheDuchess

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Re: So HRT IS SAFE after all
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2015, 05:38:52 PM »

But other posters made it into a debate about HRT and used the topic to talk about lawsuits and criminality in pharma companies.
As far as I know, there has never been a law suit on HRT .  I'd rather trust consultants to review research published because, as far as is possible to tell, they have no axe to grind either way.
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GypsyRoseLee

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Re: So HRT IS SAFE after all
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2015, 06:29:05 PM »

Do GPs accept massive gifts in return for prescribing drugs? Really? I was at university with a lot of medical students who are still friends and are now doctors.

I think this is a bit of an urban myth. When the subject has been raised in the past my GP friends have snorted and gone 'I bloody wish...'.
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Mary G

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Re: So HRT IS SAFE after all
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2015, 06:42:09 PM »

Good post Duchess.  Lots of things in life are natural but we don't necessarily want to go there.  Is taking the birth control pill natural?  If you study the actual risks of taking HRT they are very minimal and the vast majority of women who take it benefit from it enormously and don't get some horrible disease. 

When the million women study was carried out they were using mainly oral synthetic HRT in high doses, on women who were way past the menopause and that is why the study has been discredited.  HRT has moved on since then and the general consensus is that the progesterone part of oral HRT is the part that carries the risks.  That is why the transdermal bio identical HRT is mostly used now because the risks are much lower and it performs much better.

A friend I used to work with years ago who is much older than myself has lost about 25 years of her life due to very debilitating menopause symptoms.  She was only 48 at the time and used to regularly say "my life is over now".  She had zero sex drive, constant hot flushes, bladder problems, aches and pains, depression and her whole personality changed vitually overnight - her life was a complete misery.  She tried oral HRT but had breast pain so gave up on it.  She now has oesteoporosis and wishes that the better HRT that is around now had been available to her. 

I also witnessed my mother's health deteriorate after the menopause.  She didn't have conventional menopause symptoms of hot flushes and night sweats but hasn't had a full night's sleep in over 30 years, has bladder problems, developed high blood pressure, has had two hip replacements and now has curvature of the spine.  My parents are the same age but time has been much kinder to my father. 

At the end of the day it is up to the individual to decide and I don't think it is something that people can be persuaded on.  I made my decision to take HRT a long time ago and I'm in it for the long term.  One thing is for sure, you will never find 100% guarantees of safety in anything you do in life.
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TheDuchess

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Re: So HRT IS SAFE after all
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2015, 07:19:55 PM »

But the point Prajna is that, in reality, neither you nor I can prove or disprove the information that pharma companies publish. 'Trust' is meaningless really.
Unless we conduct our own research trials, what can we do?

We can remain cynical- perhaps based on an academic study of previous criminal cases- or we can trust UK consultants, read the research ourselves- and I mean the actual papers not summaries in the media- and make an informed choice.

I hardly think that top consultants are rubbing their hands with glee at the number of women they manage to get onto HRT in the hope they will get a holiday or other back hander out of it!

It's like a lot of stuff in life- getting married, having a child, starting a new job, moving to another location - you weigh it all up then it's leap of faith and you hope for the best. There are no guarantees in life for anything.







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CLKD

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Re: So HRT IS SAFE after all
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2015, 07:50:48 PM »

In the 1970s I helped to host drug company meetings with NHS Staff and was never aware of 'hand outs'  ;).  It was great fun and interesting to see the Consultants in mufti  ::).  It was a chance to let our hair down.  Reps. from different Pharmaceutical Companies were always calling in to see the Staff.

Duchess - any statistic can be manipulated.  Any part of Research can be left out of what is 'leaked' to the Press in order to proffer up 'good' results.  It would be nice if Companies were totally honest and produced all the Research undertaken.  Sadly this doesn't always happen.  Quite honestly, having spent hours typing up Scientific Papers not many people 'in the street' would have the energy or know-how to understand half of it  ::) ……. research costs huge amounts.  That's before it gets off the ground.  Most drugs take 7+ years before they get to the general public!

Let's wait and see what NICE suggest ……. and keep notes on how GPs across the UK deal/not with requests for HRT  ;)

Quality of Life, ladies: quality of Life  ;) - don't forget that Bus.
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TheDuchess

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Re: So HRT IS SAFE after all
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2015, 08:01:09 PM »

But the point Prajna is that you cannot prove or disprove any of it, as it's only shown to be lies or whatever you want to call it years down the line if there is evidence to show the research wasn't totally honest.

You can make an individual choice- which appears to be not wanting to believe research done in the US - and that's fine.

I am sure that the BMS who publish consensus statements are fully aware of all of this- they aren't gullible fools.

« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 07:05:33 AM by TheDuchess »
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CLKD

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Re: So HRT IS SAFE after all
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2015, 08:03:55 PM »

We aren't being paid to prove/disprove  ::) that's what we rely on the Drugs Companies and Medics to filter out.  Filtering out can only be done if people are honest ……. it also depends a lot on who Funds the various Research Projects  ;)
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honeybun

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Re: So HRT IS SAFE after all
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2015, 09:13:30 PM »

There actually have been law suits against manufacturers of HRT

This is just one that was brought to my attention but there are more.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/07/08/canadian-hrt-users-can-claim-compensation-from-13m-fund.html


Honeybun
X

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TheDuchess

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Re: So HRT IS SAFE after all
« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2015, 07:17:37 AM »

Surely everyone knows that stats can be 'massaged' and research results weighted in a certain way?
This is nothing new.
As far as drugs go, it's good to have some healthy scepticism, but when this becomes all-out cynicism, where does that leave you?

History shows there are occasions when information was withheld or new evidence provides more information on the drug.
But it's only with hindsight that we are aware of this. (My mum was offered Thalidomide when pregnant with me and thank goodness she decided to avoid drugs.)
At the moment statins,  which only a few months ago were being touted as the 'must have drug' for all the over-50s, have now been shown to be well...not quite so good after all.

I think what annoys me about some reactions to research on HRT is that it's 'cherry picking'; if you refuse to accept the research or feel it lacks honesty, then you have to apply that principle to all drugs, surely? So if you are having treatment for cancer, or heart disease, or MS or any other terrible illness, you would refuse it on the basis the pharma companies are not being honest? Or would you just reject US research?

Or are we back to the idea that HRT is for something that women should just suffer from and it's not worth taking a risk?

I'm not holding my breath for the Nice report because Nice has a habit of making decisions based not just on benefit but also on economics; if the cost of the drug outweighs the benefits to the population they refuse access to it, although people can often pay for it.. Many people are denied life saving/extending drugs because Nice decided they were too costly.
 If HRT was £400 a packet and not £4 it would be interesting to see their reaction. Now who's being cynical?






« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 07:44:35 AM by TheDuchess »
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GypsyRoseLee

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Re: So HRT IS SAFE after all
« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2015, 07:38:22 AM »

Well quite right Duchess. If pharma companies are basically dishonest then would the highly cynical posters on here eschew drugs for cancer treatment? Or for high blood pressure? Or for diabetes?

Or do pharma companies only decide to get all shifty and slightly dishonest when it comes to HRT? But why would they be so selective, especially when HRT is dirt cheap compared to many drugs, especially cancer ones?
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TheDuchess

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Re: So HRT IS SAFE after all
« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2015, 09:01:42 AM »

Why is the conversation silly? Because some of us are pointing out the illogical reasoning behind some comments?

If the whole point of the thread was whether to trust pharma companies and their research, then this conversation is spot-on.

If people don't worry about the research behind cancer drugs, then why is HRT different? Are we back to minimising the menopause and women's suffering from long term, hormone-related health issues that can kill them?

Many cancer drugs kill because they are so powerful. It's a very fine line between kill and cure with chemo.




« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 09:17:41 AM by TheDuchess »
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Briony

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Re: So HRT IS SAFE after all
« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2015, 09:29:51 AM »

This conversation is starting to get just a little bit silly now.


 .... because of the breast cancer they got from taking the hrt in question!!


You might feel that the conversation has got 'silly', but then by adding inflammatory comments like this, on a forum where many people take HRT, not for vanity, but because of the sheer desperation to get back some sort of quality of life, surely you realise that's going to provoke strong feelings and thus further the 'silly' debate?

One in eight people are affected by breast cancer, so inevitably a lot of ladies on here who take HRT will be affected by it. Whether the HRT is the direct cause or not is a different issue. After all, there are clear links with breast cancer and alcohol, breast cancer and weight, yet there doesn't seem to be the same aggression aimed at ladies who drink and are over weight?


 ... http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/causes-of-cancer/bodyweight-and-cancer/how-being-overweight-causes-cancer
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 09:31:25 AM by Briony »
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