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[peegeetip]

Hi GeordieGirl



where did you get that from, in regards to that they are not as good as our own hormones?

"progestin and progesterone are the synthetic hormones and these may ... They don't possess the properties of our natural hormone"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progesterone

These work fine for me

[CLKD]

Links can be referred to as long as they don't advertise or ask for money!

Or one can send a PM to Members with the details 

[Annie0710]

Hi GeordieGirl



where did you get that from, in regards to that they are not as good as our own hormones?

"progestin and progesterone are the synthetic hormones and these may ... They don't possess the properties of our natural hormone"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progesterone

These work fine for me

I think, but not sure as it's all totally confusing, that progestins work fine if you have a uterus because it protects it.
In my case having no uterus, I have been on oestrogen only hrt because I had no womb to protect.  However in recent years I am presenting symptoms that may indicate oestrogen dominance, if that's the case, natural progesterone is what I may need to alleviate the problems.
Please don't take this as true, I'm a beginner here !
Xx

[GeordieGirl]

Hi GeordieGirl



where did you get that from, in regards to that they are not as good as our own hormones?

"progestin and progesterone are the synthetic hormones and these may ... They don't possess the properties of our natural hormone"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progesterone

These work fine for me

There are countless studies that prove the superiority of progesterone versus progestin. The most notable is the PEPI study, but an ongoing report of over 50k women in France also highlights differences - these are summarised below, at the bottom I've noted just a handful of the reports:

Differences between Progestin (medroxyprogesterone) and Progesterone:

PROGESTERONE sustains pregnancy and the developing foetus. Used to prevent miscarriage. PROGESTIN may cause birth defects if taken during pregnancy, can cause masculinisation in some female foetuses.

PROGESTERONE  builds bone, increases bone density and helps prevent osteoporosis. PROGESTIN  can decrease bone density, as reported in young women who regularly use an injection of Provera as a form of contraception.

PROGESTERONE decreases the risk of blood clots, working with oestrogen to protect against cardiovascular disease. Normalises blood clotting.  PROGESTIN may cause blood clots, which can lead to cerebral and myocardial infarctions. (strokes and heart attacks)

PROGESTERONE  is a diuretic, PROGESTIN  can cause fluid retention.

PROGESTERONE  is a natural anti depressant that can relieve headaches. PROGESTIN can cause depression, mood swings and headaches.

PROGESTERONE helps maintain normal blood sugar levels. PROGESTIN  can exacerbate diabetes mellitus.

PROGESTERONE  relieves breast tenderness and protects against fibrocystic breast disease.  PROGESTIN can cause breast tenderness, swelling and pain.  (According to NHS direct ) Women who take progestins frequently complain about annoying side effects like breast tenderness, skin irritations, depression, breakthrough bleeding, swelling and other unpleasantries. These side effects could be the reason so many women quite conventional HRT early.  The main side effect of progesterone is sleepiness.

The claim that progesterone may protect against breast cancer is backed up by a big ongoing French study of 54,548 menopausal women, comparing what happens to those who take progesterone in their HRT with those who get progestin.
The latest report has found that after eight years, while those on progestins have a raised risk of breast cancer, those on progesterone don't. As a result of this research there has been a change in prescribing in France. “After the WHI study, many women had stopped taking oestrogen pills,” says Dr Virginie Ringa of the French Institute for Health and Medical Research, Le Kremlin-Bicêtre, Paris. “Now they are taking an oestrogen patch together with progesterone which is taken orally.

According to Dr Michael Schumacher of the French Institute for Health and Medical Research: “ There is evidence that progesterone has beneficial effects on the breast tissue, on blood vessels and for strengthening bones. Many of the benefits of progesterone comes from the fact that while oestrogen stimulates cells, progesterone calms them down. As a result, one striking claim for progesterone is that it might lower your risk for dementia.”
In the brain, oestrogen and progesterone combine to protect cells, while progestins reduce this protective effect.
 While the Women's Health Initiative (WHI) study showed that combining progestins with oestrogen slightly raised the risk of strokes and breast cancer, Schumacher's work (as well as similar studies below) explains how progesterone can lower these dangers.

1.- PEPI trial :  The Postmenopausal Estrogen/ Progestin / Progesterone Interventions.
2.  Dai D, Wolf DM, Litman ES, White MJ, Leslie KK. Progesterone inhibits endrometrial cancer cell growth and invasiveness; down regulation of cellular adhesion molecules through progesterone B receptors. Cancer Research  2002; 62 881-886
3. Leonetti HB, Anasti JN, Litman ES. Topical progesterone; an alternative to progestin in hormone replacement therapy. Obstet and Gynecol 2003;101, 85
4. Steinbery D, Transdermanl progesterone cream as an alternative to progestin in HRT  Health Med 2005
5. Montz FJ, Bristow RE, Bovicelli A, Tomacruz R, Kurman RJ  Progesterone treatment of early endometrial cancer, American J Obstet Gynecol 2002; 186; 651-657
6 Moyer DL, Felix DC The effects of progesterone and progestins on endometrial proliferation. Contraception 1998
7 Miller BE, De Souza MJ, Slade K, Luciana AA. Sublingual administration of micronized estradiol and progesterone – effect on biochemical markers of bone metabolism and bone mineral density. Menopause 2000, 318:326
8. Chlebowski, Rowan T., 2009. Breast cancer after use of estrogen plus progestin in postmenopausal women, New England Journal of Medicine, February 5, Volume 360:573-587.


I have previously used a progestin for many years as a form of birth control. I had minor side effects with it which soon wore off - what I don't know however is whether this had any longer term effect on my body? Reading the studies and reports doesn't reassure me.

Although not huge money spinners for the pharmaceutical companies (natural progesterone can't be patented)  progesterone is available as branded producsts in HRT , eg Utrogestan, Prochieve, Prometrium, Crinone.

HRT is such a personal thing and what works for one may not work for another, but information is key in this. Unfortunately our GPs seem to fob too many off with a box based on little more than guess work and a list of products on screen. 

GG x

[Annie0710]

Although not huge money spinners for the pharmaceutical companies (natural progesterone can't be patented)  progesterone is available as branded producsts in HRT , eg Utrogestan, Prochieve, Prometrium, Crinone.


So GG, if she says I need natural progesterone, do you mean these are some if the brands ?
Xx

[GeordieGirl]

Although not huge money spinners for the pharmaceutical companies (natural progesterone can't be patented)  progesterone is available as branded producsts in HRT , eg Utrogestan, Prochieve, Prometrium, Crinone.


So GG, if she says I need natural progesterone, do you mean these are some if the brands ?
Xx

Hi Annie - I haven't checked all of them (I'm not sure about Prometrium?) so it's worth double checking. Crinone and Cyclogest are also available as gels. I suspect there may be more?  I think there are a number of people on here using Utrogestan in various guises.
I suspect the main thing with any replacement therapy is getting the right dose which seems to be a bit of educated guesswork initially but our bodies usually tell us if something's out of kilter...

GG X

[Annie0710]

Although not huge money spinners for the pharmaceutical companies (natural progesterone can't be patented)  progesterone is available as branded producsts in HRT , eg Utrogestan, Prochieve, Prometrium, Crinone.


So GG, if she says I need natural progesterone, do you mean these are some if the brands ?
Xx

Hi Annie - I haven't checked all of them (I'm not sure about Prometrium?) so it's worth double checking. Crinone and Cyclogest are also available as gels. I suspect there may be more?  I think there are a number of people on here using Utrogestan in various guises.
I suspect the main thing with any replacement therapy is getting the right dose which seems to be a bit of educated guesswork initially but our bodies usually tell us if something's out of kilter...

GG X

Thank you GG
I've been on oestrogen orally for years now but am interested in the gel route if she says progesterone is needed (which I firmly believe it is)

I'm kinda getting excited that there is a light at the end of this pitch black tunnel
Xx

[BrightLight]

For my own personal curiosity I sent off a saliva test for Progesterone and Oestradiol and the results come with caveats as I know they might not be accurate, they are a snapshot only, they could refer to annovulatory cycles and they change everyday but I just wanted to see if I had low/zero estrogen.  I am not thinking of treating with hormones right now, it was curiosity that prompted it.

I also took it on the 'wrong' day - it was meant to be day 21 when both hormones are at peak - it was day 3 ooops

Anyway I have low progesterone and bang in the middle of the range oestradiol.  The ration of progesterone to oestradiol is towards the low end.  All of this supports to some extent that in perimenopause progesterone levels are the first to drop and therefore it could be assumed that any symptoms I have had are largely due to this imbalance and not ovulating.  That's how my logic works - but I am willing to accept I am probably seeing this all far too simplistically  

[dazned]

Hi Brightlight,very interesting to hear about saliva test guessing you had to pay was it expensive? And I might be quite wrong,often am but if you did it on day 3 wouldn't you expect progesterone to be low as that usually comes towards end of cycle unless you are taking it every day I guess ! 

[BrightLight]

Hi dazned yes it was expensive, I sent it off a while ago now, in the midst of my confusion about why the doctor said I was postmenopausal after one FSH test.  Yes, progesterone should be low on day 3, so in some ways it reflects a normal situation - although the ratio they also gave said there should be more progesterone in relation to oestradiol.  The progesterone was at the lower end of the range for the follicular phase and the oestradiol was bang in the middle of the range.

Obviously I appreciate it doesn't give a full picture by any stretch of the imagination and suspect I am not ovulating and stress is playing a part in the low progesterone - so my approach is still to focus on stress reduction and for me, any knowledge of what my body is doing is helpful with that

[Hurdity]

Hi BrightLight

As you say salivary tests are of no help in telling you absolute levels of sex hormones but are only useful to help determine if a woman is ovulating in a normal cycle - which is why tests are done in the luteal phase when progesterone is at its peak. I'm not even sure they are carried out routinely on NHS because they are so limited - but someone will know I expect. If you are peri-menopausal and your cycles are becoming irregular they aren't really any help at all in that you wouldn't know when to take the sample because you would need to know you were having a more or less regular cycle before you started if you see what I mean!

Progesterone is expected to be extremely low in the follicular phase and in post-menopause - and deficiency should not cause obvious symptoms other than anovulatory cycles, which can lead to heavier bleeding I understand.  It isn't really necessary to know the levels except re pregnancy, because they are so low.

Hurdity x

[BrightLight]

Hi Hurdity
That's right, saliva tests for these hormones aren't used in the mainstream system yet and I didn't read the instructions properly - the best time for a sample day 21. The results showed the ranges for each phase of the cycle and I was having a period that month, so I knew it was day 3, but yes, day 21 might be tricky with irregular cycles.

I was under the impression that progesterone was linked to low mood and anxiety and some reference to skin health and I'm still unsure why is is said the the level of progesterone and the ratio has no bearing on any symptoms.  It seems logical to me that breast tenderness for example could be due to the ratio of low progesterone to estrogen during perimenopause and as you say heavy bleeding and anovulatory cycles.

I did the test mainly for the oestradial levels - if they were non existant, I would be thinking further about hormone treatment. So, it was useful to me in that regard - even if they are swinging about.