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Author Topic: Can anyone give me a chemistry lesson?  (Read 44571 times)

dogdoc

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Re: Can anyone give me a chemistry lesson?
« Reply #90 on: March 08, 2015, 12:26:32 AM »

It's the Canadian version of Ultrogestan...here its prometrium but its micronized progesterone. 200mg for 10-12 days mid cycle onward.
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CLKD

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Re: Can anyone give me a chemistry lesson?
« Reply #91 on: March 08, 2015, 02:01:03 PM »

We are a Mine of Information  ;D

How's the weather over there? 
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Dana

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Re: Can anyone give me a chemistry lesson?
« Reply #92 on: March 09, 2015, 02:42:25 AM »

I'm part way  through a huge book by Jonathan Wright and Lane Lenoard on bio identical hormones and it's a real eye opener. Whilst the big drug companies have the huge budgets to push the sale of horse hormones,  they have very little interest in bio-identicals because they can't patent them.  That said, despite the lack of the multi million pound spends, this hasn't stopped the research, a lot of which has been carried out in Europe where the use of bios is much more widespread. There are a wealth of studies that also investigate the role of progesterone on our bodies, and the benefits this has on insomnia, depression, oestrogen related blood clots and bone density to name just a few. (Check out the PEPI study of 875 women, which used saw gains in bone density against a placebo group when progesterone or even progestin was used).

The term "bioidentical hormones" is really a term that shouldn't be used because it has different meanings in different countries. In countries like USA, Canada, and Australia it means compounded hormones, which most menopause experts don't advocate. Bioidentical is actually a non-scientific term, and most regular doctors don't use it. It is a term that has been adopted by the alternate medical community to try to convince women that it is the only way of getting “natural” hormones, and this is totally untrue.

The people who advocate compounded hormones (and it sounds like that is what the authors of the book you mentioned are doing) always seem to push this lie that drug companies don't use "bioidenticals" because they can't be patented, and this is not correct. They are just playing into the insecurities and confusion of women who are suffering the effects of menopause.

Drug companies already manufacture "bioidentical" hormones in the form of patches, gels, pills and capsules and they are prescribed as estradiol and progesterone by a regular doctor and dispensed by a regular pharmacist. This is something that these compounded hormone advocates always neglect to say, despite the evidence. They always just refer to the equine estrogen and progestin HRTs, without acknowledging that there are other natural types of HRT readily available.

In some cases, companies will even prescribe these compounded hormones over the phone/internet without you ever sitting face to face with a doctor. The treatment will be based on a saliva test which is even more unreliable than a blood test. Most doctors don't even bother with a blood test because of its unreliability. In my early stages of menopause I investigated one of these companies, and it was going to cost me in excess of $100 per month to get some creams posted to me, but I never actually got to talk to the doctor prescribing them. This was also about 4 years ago, so I'm sure it would be more expensive now. They seem to be able to get around the non-doctor thing because they aren't specifically regarded as “medication”.

Some other ladies have mentioned the book by Dr Elizabeth Vliet called "Screaming to be Heard", and IMO that would be a far better book for you to read than the one you are reading. It can be a bit heavy going in places, I will admit that I haven't read it cover to cover, by it is a very good reference book if you need to know something.

Of course women should be free to use whatever treatments they want in menopause, but they should always make their choice after they know ALL the information, and not just go by the purposely skewed information given by these advocates of compounded hormone treatments. These are just a few of the downsides.

•   Compounded hormones are expensive to buy
•   It has been found that some doctors prescribe compounded hormones either because they get kickbacks from the compounding pharmacy, or they themselves own the compounding pharmacy
•   No studies have confirmed that using progesterone topically (ie as a cream rubbed on the skin) will sufficiently oppose the estradiol/estrogen to protect the uterine lining
•   These hormone creams are made in a private compounding pharmacy so there is no overall quality control, and it has been found that incorrect ingredients and quantities have been used

These are just also a few links to recognised medical experts/sites that don't support compounded hormones.

http://www.studd.co.uk/bioidentical_hormones.php

http://www.menopause.org/publications/clinical-practice-materials/bioidentical-hormone-therapy/compounded-bioidentical-hormones-what%27s-the-harm-

http://www.menopause.org.au/for-women/information-sheets/34-bioidentical-hormones-for-menopausal-symptoms

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XfpAATJkC8
« Last Edit: March 09, 2015, 02:49:37 AM by Dana »
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Dancinggirl

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Re: Can anyone give me a chemistry lesson?
« Reply #93 on: March 09, 2015, 07:57:14 AM »

Thank you Dana - excellent and informative post.  DG x
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dogdoc

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Re: Can anyone give me a chemistry lesson?
« Reply #94 on: March 09, 2015, 10:17:48 AM »

Great response Dana.
CLKD it's cold and snowy but I detect a trace of spring :))

Tara
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Hurdity

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Re: Can anyone give me a chemistry lesson?
« Reply #95 on: March 09, 2015, 11:56:11 AM »

Thanks Dana - you've explained in much more detail, and also from personal experience, what I covered briefly in my post on the other thread a few days ago but think it got missed! I have a few more links on there - but also the Vliet Bio-identical Youtube one + a couple more too if anyone wants to look here:
http://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,27241.0.html

Will bump it up for those who are interested in this important and interesting topic  :)

Hurdity x
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CLKD

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Re: Can anyone give me a chemistry lesson?
« Reply #96 on: March 09, 2015, 02:08:48 PM »

 :thankyou:
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GeordieGirl

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Re: Can anyone give me a chemistry lesson?
« Reply #97 on: March 14, 2015, 09:52:25 AM »

Compounding pharmacies / aseptic pharmacy services are regulated and licensed by the MHRA and not just left free reign to be slap dash. Many of these services are in hospitals. 

Naturally the pharmaceutical companies would like these services not to be available, they make far more money if their branded product is sold...
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GeordieGirl

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Re: Can anyone give me a chemistry lesson?
« Reply #98 on: March 14, 2015, 09:59:57 AM »

Hi Ladies, thought I would give you all a quick update re starting Femseven Conti, as not sure if I need more oestrogen or progesterone? My night sweats have increased, dreadful sinus type headache, joints stiff, feeling low, no energy, even starting to get flushes during the day, which I have never had before. I went to see the doc yesterday, who was useless as said I need to take strong painkillers every four hours for the next three months, as that should clear the headaches!!
On a positive note I have no anxiety. So not sure if I can try and increase the oestrogen alongside the patch as I have lots of oestrogel sitting in the drawer. I would really appreciate any input as my symptoms are slowly getting worse. I have been trying to find the right HRT for the past seven years, I am now 51 and wonder how much longer I will be struggling to find the right dose. Cacey x

Why doesn't the doctor check your hormone levels rather than guessing? To simply prescribe painkillers is shocking - a friend was prescribed anti depressants even though her tests showed clearly she was oestrogen dominant. The more I hear about our GPs, the more I fear for our survival!
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honorsmum

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Re: Can anyone give me a chemistry lesson?
« Reply #99 on: March 14, 2015, 11:20:44 AM »

Hi Ladies, thought I would give you all a quick update re starting Femseven Conti, as not sure if I need more oestrogen or progesterone? My night sweats have increased, dreadful sinus type headache, joints stiff, feeling low, no energy, even starting to get flushes during the day, which I have never had before. I went to see the doc yesterday, who was useless as said I need to take strong painkillers every four hours for the next three months, as that should clear the headaches!!
On a positive note I have no anxiety. So not sure if I can try and increase the oestrogen alongside the patch as I have lots of oestrogel sitting in the drawer. I would really appreciate any input as my symptoms are slowly getting worse. I have been trying to find the right HRT for the past seven years, I am now 51 and wonder how much longer I will be struggling to find the right dose. Cacey x

Why doesn't the doctor check your hormone levels rather than guessing? To simply prescribe painkillers is shocking - a friend was prescribed anti depressants even though her tests showed clearly she was oestrogen dominant. The more I hear about our GPs, the more I fear for our survival!

That's my other concern about starting HRT - how do you know you're not oestrogen dominant without blood tests?
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GeordieGirl

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Re: Can anyone give me a chemistry lesson?
« Reply #100 on: March 14, 2015, 12:09:24 PM »

That's my other concern about starting HRT - how do you know you're not oestrogen dominant without blood tests?

How do you know what any of your hormones are doing without tests?  Surely this should be the starting point for many conditions?
It's false economy if this is missed due to the cost, surely it costs much more to treat a patient longer term with the wrong drugs as a guess (albeit an educated one)?

I'm really struggling to get my head around this approach to be honest. x
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Annie0710

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Re: Can anyone give me a chemistry lesson?
« Reply #101 on: March 14, 2015, 12:13:13 PM »

Both play a part in everything as far as I can see - progesterone is good for heart health for instance and estrogen too.  The thing is - it is definately reported that high estrogen can be damaging but I can't see the same for progesterone, so I wonder why estrogen is the priority to replace and the main focus???


This is exactly what is confusing me !
I had my hysterectomy back in '99 aged 32, within a year I was on oestrogen due to ovaries going into shock and led a happy and healthy life until 3 years when boom ! My body and mind fell to pieces.  Docs fobbed me off with ADs and said I was peri menopausal.

My symptoms have never gone since but I've developed even more recently and am not prepared to let this lie any longer. I have symptoms of oestrogen dominance and do not want to stop taking it to balance out. What if I am low in progesterone ? Why can't I have progesterone even though I have no womb ? If it is oestrogen dominance progesterone could help ? Plus give me back some degree of sexual desire that suddenly left me a few years ago

Would progesterone harm me without a uterus? It didn't for all those years I was naturally making it after the hysterectomy

Why oh why is being female so damn confusing ?

I feel like 3 years ago I went to bed as a sexy outgoing 45 year old and woke up looking and feeling like great great grandmother !

Xx
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honorsmum

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Re: Can anyone give me a chemistry lesson?
« Reply #102 on: March 14, 2015, 12:21:11 PM »

That's my other concern about starting HRT - how do you know you're not oestrogen dominant without blood tests?

How do you know what any of your hormones are doing without tests?  Surely this should be the starting point for many conditions?
It's false economy if this is missed due to the cost, surely it costs much more to treat a patient longer term with the wrong drugs as a guess (albeit an educated one)?

I'm really struggling to get my head around this approach to be honest. x

My GP would  only test FSH - which came back as "normal" when tested on a random day in my cycle.
Then I saw a specialist last week, who listened to my symptoms and experiences so far and agreed that I was in perimenopause and suggested the mirena coil with oestrogen gel.
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GeordieGirl

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Re: Can anyone give me a chemistry lesson?
« Reply #103 on: March 14, 2015, 12:43:28 PM »


Would progesterone harm me without a uterus? It didn't for all those years I was naturally making it after the hysterectomy



Progesterone wouldn't - this is the natural hormone produced by our bodies and if you do a google on it, you'll find it mentioned on cancer websites too. It is an anti-carcinogen and protects against breast and uterine cancer. It helps not just prevent osteoporosis but promotes the building of new bone density. It helps cardio vascular and cognitive functions. It protects against fibroids and cysts.

Progestin and progesterone are the synthetic hormones and these may ... They don't possess the properties of our natural hormone. 

There are a lot of links on this (I won't post any as I've just been banned for posting up links  ??? ) however a search on the benefits of progesterone will list a number.  x
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GeordieGirl

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Re: Can anyone give me a chemistry lesson?
« Reply #104 on: March 14, 2015, 12:45:42 PM »

I had my hysterectomy back in '99 aged 32, within a year I was on oestrogen due to ovaries going into shock and led a happy and healthy life until 3 years when boom ! My body and mind fell to pieces.  Docs fobbed me off with ADs and said I was peri menopausal.


Shocking. Simply shocking.

GG x
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