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[BrightLight]

I have found this discussion really useful, and am really pleased to have found this website and got a lot from it - at the end of the day we are all individuals and have to make our own decisions based on our circumstances and our own health situation.

Hi  - I agree. At first I thought there was a black and white solution to all this - feel rubbish or take HRT.  I don't know where I got the idea from - my GP I think   Anyway your experience shows that things change and the challenge is to work with that and remain well as best we can. 

[BrightLight]

There is even controversy as to whether HRT does protect you from heart disease.
 

Would be interested to know where this is disputed?

Hurdity x

I am pretty sure that it would protect some and not others and it does seem that research shows the timing of treatment is key in the outcome.  When I was learning about all this for the first time I used NHS/Patient UK as my first source as this is the info my doctor will be working from (I presume).  It is here that they choose to say outcomes are controversial and that HRT should not be prescribed to prevent heart disease.

[BrightLight]

I started perimeno at 42 but did not use HRT till age 47 because I did not know I was menopausal and mistook the symptoms for other things.

No doctor has ever told me my heart and bones may be compromised.

Hi there - I just wanted to clarify that it's possible I have early menopause, which is classified as stopping periods before the age of 45 and some women stop even earlier in their 20's and 30's - in these situations the loss of estrogen hormones so young can increase your risk of bone strength and heart disease.  So you don't need to worry as it sounds like you are experiencing a natural menopause at the usual age

Hi, I think I had early perimenoause, cos even though my periods were still there, i was flushing etc My current hrt has really helped the flushes although some still come.
I am a bit concerned about the 5 years I was not on hrt.

I don't think the age you go through perimenopause matters, does it?
Since it can last 5 to 10 years, and menopause over 45 is not seen as early, a woman could well start peri at 35 and it not be "early".
I'm 45, still having periods but they are fluctuating in frequency and length, and I'm getting other peri symptoms which I'm hoping HRT might help.

Although treated the same Ovarian Failure before 40 is different from natural menopause and this is where the extra risk lies, before 45 and it is termed early menopause but it could still mean you have not had sex hormones in your system as long as optimally needed.  Perimenopausal symptoms that come and go are different that ovarian failure and result in a natural decline and fluctuation that will end past 45 which in medical terms indicates to them that the ovaries have had a natural decline and 'extra' risk factors don't apply.  Hope that makes sense

[BrightLight]

Well, Brightlight, the response as to what it's like not to take hrt after an early menopause has mostly turned into ‘the benefits of taking hrt'.

I went through it at 41 am now 55, and not on hrt apart from local (i.e. vagifem for VA).
I am NOT in a wheelchair, and not on the scrap heap.

Thanks for your message Jan - you are correct in thinking it can be all quite depressing when younger and I am glad to hear you don't consider yourself on the scrap heap   If a doctor said that to me, HRT option or not, I would be walking out of the door.

[peegeetip]

Hi Brightlight

"some but not others"

Estrogen and its higher level in ladies are proven to be the main factor in the low rates of CHD and Heart Attacks in ladies under 50.

Not sure where you get that point but anyone who takes HRT will gain this benefit.

Your main point is correct that they are unsure about is when to start the HRT in peri to get best of this benefit to heart and vascular part of us. It could be when you starts sweats/flushes or might be earlier when we experience more subtle problems.
Latest views are that using the pill later into our 40's may help our heart and keep other symptoms at bay longer.

Either way there is a benefit or stabilizing effect on all that partake.

[BrightLight]

It really is an interesting thread - we are all coming at the topic from a different set of values, needs and approaches and it seems clear to me that perhaps this has something to do with the notion of 'for' or 'against' HRT.

I'd like to say that I am not against HRT, the fact that people have assumed I am does suggest to me a stronger bias on this forum of women that feel the need to defend their choice to use HRT or for some other reason are making assumptions and subsequent approaches to 'convert' others into the use of it.

I didn't come here to make a decision about whether it was right or wrong in the general scheme of things, I came to find out about the menopause and how I and others manage their health and lives whilst experiencing it.  Whether HRT is part of the solution or not is obviously a big decision but to me, it's no more 'valuable' than me researching evening primrose oil, ladycare magnets, biodential prescribed hormones, anxiety medications or a change in life that might need making that is adding to stress at the time of menopause.

There has also been an assumption I want to do things 'naturally' and it has made me think about that. I am most definately not a 100% natural and wholesome person but I do approach my life in a way that believes in balance and cause and effect.

Something Jan said was how I feel about medication, particularly when the medication is being used for a complex/individual system as it is with hormones.  I do have a concern about creating more symptoms whilst addressing symptoms.  There is no doubt in my mind that this will happen with HRT or Biodentical hormones if I take them - by that I mean there will be adjustments and a need to be aware and fine tune and for me, that will increase my anxiety.  I also think that once you treat something in this way that other things might be 'forgotten' or put out of whack.  I might WANT with all my heart to get my hormones back (I do) and I might choose too - but for me I will be aware that potentially I am improving an area of my body above what it naturally wants to be like, so that other things will then be out of balance. 

If I can manage symptoms and changes as I go along, this would feel more 'natural' to me and if I get severe problems, which perhaps I will, I will continue to look for gentle ways to address them. 

This site has been invaluable in learning about potential problems and awareness of the changes that happen during this time, I am better equipped to know what my body is doing.  I guess this way of thinking is 'risky' in that I might not know that VA is indeed underway or something else is going wrong somewhere and HRT would definately give me a type of insurance and perhaps I will need it at some point.

For now, I want to try and trust my body and not overcompensate and judge whether I need the help of HRT or whether smaller changes and time will allow me to manage this whole transition.  I can choose to stop the transition with HRT and that's a great option to have.

I don't however want to buy into the 'fear' factor and I have discovered there is a lot of that within this subject area.  Fear and anxiety is one of my weak points and it's no surprise to me that it is intense around this time - perhaps all the other symptoms that are troubling at menopause are simply indicators of where our natural weaknesses lie (?)  How we embrace and balance that is our own choice - HRT if used in a way to help ease symptoms and a transition seems great to me - if it tips towards use to hold back symptoms or changes that might need addressing at some point anyway or as insurance for health, is to me, almost as naieve as someone thinking eating lots of soy will solve everything

It is thought provoking and educational to have these discussions.  I really think our values and ways of dealing with lifes challenges inform our choices and we all do that in ways that feel comfortable for us.  I do find myself in the minority not wanting to take medications unless I feel confident in them and that comes down to many factors, not just research and risks - it's a lifestyle choice that I hope to hang onto for a while.  I may not be able to, but I hope so.

[BrightLight]

Hi Brightlight

"some but not others"

Estrogen and its higher level in ladies are proven to be the main factor in the low rates of CHD and Heart Attacks in ladies under 50.

Not sure where you get that point but anyone who takes HRT will gain this benefit.

Your main point is correct that they are unsure about is when to start the HRT in peri to get best of this benefit to heart and vascular part of us. It could be when you starts sweats/flushes or might be earlier when we experience more subtle problems.
Latest views are that using the pill later into our 40's may help our heart and keep other symptoms at bay longer.

Either way there is a benefit or stabilizing effect on all that partake.

Btw JanM I thought you had been using HRT products as in earlier posts?

I am not as clued up on this and  was referencing things I read on Patient.co.uk - the full text on the site explains all the factors of timing, taking HRT after certain ages etc and the point you take it.  It does read that benefits are clear up until age 60 but also that it varies.  My point is that as a medicine, it is meant to be prescribed in women past 45 for symptom control and not protection - of course I realise that it is chosen for protection purposes by some and that's fine.  I am just not someone that uses medicine in this way.

[Rowan]

Does HRT protect women from heart disease

http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/women4060/Pages/women-and-heart-disease.aspx

Bone protection ultra low dose estrogen patch

http://www.docguide.com/fda-approves-menostar-estradiol-transdermal-osteoporosis-prevention

Well done BrightLight and janm on your balanced posts.

Women should not be frightened into taking HRT, to its got to a point even for me that we are frightened to take it and frightened not to take it.

I to am also fed up of always having to search for evidence to back up my posts.

As jamn says "Like everything else in life, the best thing is to weigh up everything, keep an open mind, and make your decision based on your own personal circumstances. In most cases you can change your decision at any time, and the main thing is that it is your decision"

Wise words.

[honorsmum]

I find the whole topic terrifying, if I'm honest.
I think I've said it before, but it really feels similar to the breast v. bottle, natural v. medicalised birth debates - women in either camp have their own reasons for their choices, and can sometimes become quiet vocal (maybe because it's human nature to need to validate your choices by persuading others it's the absolutely best thing to do?) and the choice is further muddied by the opinion of individual GP s.

The worst thing about the whole issue for me is that it's a topic you only consider when you're in the the eye of the storm as it were, and hormones are making you feel vulnerable, fearful , desperate and confused.

[BrightLight]

I find the whole topic terrifying, if I'm honest.
I think I've said it before, bit it really feels similar to the breast v. bottle, natural v. medicalised birth debates - women in either camp have their own reasons for their choices, and can sometimes become quiet vocal (maybe because it's human nature to need to validate your choices by persuading others it's the absolutely best thing to do?) and the choice is further muddied by the opinion of individual GP s.

The worst thing about the whole issue for me is that it's a topic you only consider when you're in the the eye of the storm as it were, and hormones are making you feel vulnerable, fearful , desperate and confused.

Yes yes to your last point - talk about bad timing, it's very hard. I think you have hit the nail on the head about how some of use sort of lose our own confidence and faith in our choices.  After wrangling with it for some weeks, I am really really trying to fall back on my values, my foundations and what has worked for me in the past when I have had tough choices.  As women we can really support each other with these choices, not just with information giving (which is always useful) but emotionally.  Sharing confidence and belief in each other.  With that note I really wish you all that you need as you make your way through this maze of information and decisions    I am thinking there will be relief for us both when we decide what action we want and need to take. 

[BrightLight]

Does HRT protect women from heart disease

Well done BrightLight and janm on your balanced posts.

Women should not be frightened into taking HRT, to its got to a point even for me that we are frightened to take it and frightened not to take it.

Thank you and yes I agree about this fear factor - lets remove it   There isn't a right or wrong, there is only an informed choice. That, as you say is undoable.  Hurray........freedom

[peegeetip]

Nobody is frightening anyone into taking HRT!
You just have to do a few searches on this forum to see the extent of the problems out there on this site alone.
Any subject that deals with normally private parts of our lives is never going to read well to some.
We can't sugar coat some of the topics on what we've experienced.

As Brightlight has said a few times now, she can read and make up her own mind in her own time.
If she chooses either way it wont affect me directly.
I'll be glad for her and supportive either way on this forum.

HRT certainly affected me but also those around me.
I've said a few times I actually felt a failure at the start for taking HRT at all.
This was partly due to how my doc put it across to me but also a general feeling out there that we should put up with a lower quality of life (that I was decending into) and just get on with it.
This was just wrong for me and I see that now but thats my view.

This gets to the core of where I'm concerned about the way we see and treat peri and meno.
If someone started thyroid or type two diabetes drugs no one would raise an eyelid.
We'd take it gladly from our doctor and understand that our body was not working in the way we'd like.
Why is it when we get to the letter M for menopause we suddenly "loose" our minds and are wracked with the choice we've got to make?
Is it due to all the attitude to it, or the scare stories out there about BC etc(when we are told smoking and alcohol are far more damaging to that part of our body) or feeling less of a woman or the ignorance that exist etc etc.

I don't suddenly see all my friends drinking less or becoming teetotal btw.
So why such angst and soul searching about the HRT when other things impact our general health much more?
Perhaps some might look at these other dangers in context for their quest for the answer.
I for one have never had the same guilt trip on alcohol from my doc that I was given for HRT.
I find that quite unusual and quite a biased starting point already.

The only other thing in recent years that's come close to this situation of fear with peri and meno is the MMR debacle. Once parents gladly chose to have their children immunized. Then someone throws up a scare story and suddenly we all suddenly question the validity of this.

I'm not in any camp and certainly not pro anything apart from my DH and family that put up with me so far through my peri years so far (thank goodness).
 
This is a forum for discussion and we should not try to pigeon hole those who are trying to pass on their experience and understanding thus far.

I could pass judgment on others on the forum but that would be rude.
It is what it is

If someone asks and I have time I will always try to pass on my thoughts and information.
If that requires me to back things up with another piece of information then I'll gladly provide it.

[Dancinggirl]

Well said peegeetips

Honorsmum - I think you hit the nail on the head when you say "we only consider the menopause when we are in the eye of the storm" - probably not the easiest time to make rational decisions! There is so much debate and the scaremongering against HRT has been so powerful, it makes our decisions of whether to treat meno symptoms or not very challenging. For me HRT is the lesser of the evils - I would love to be one of those lucky ladies who either sail through the meno or just have symptoms for a couple of years. Only you can decide whether it's right for you or not  - all I will say is "don't be scared of trying HRT - you won't know till you try it".

This thread asks 'Anyone had early menopause and not used HRT' - well my mother had a premature menopause and didn't have HRT - she is now 86 and though she has shrunk by about 4 inches she is actually quite fit and active and I'm sure there must be plenty of other women who had early/premature menopause out there who are also doing well.

janm - I am so sorry to hear that your had such a bad time and that HRT didn't help you - it doesn't suit everyone and it's a real shame you were not given better help.  I do wonder if, had you had better advice and guidance in finding appropriate treatment, you might now be feeling differently?
I feel I must take issue with you about your comments regarding HRT and other drugs. You describe HRT as an "easy approach" and I find this somewhat condescending. This is implying that women are weak if they choose to treat their meno symptoms with HRT. All too often women are told by their GPs to "Ride the Storm". I think I read on a post that one women went to her GP complaining that sex was terribly painful and her GP told her she needed to have sex more regularly to toughen things up (or words to that effect) - frankly outrageous!!!!     You talk about 'mothers little helper' and I assume you are referring to valium and other ADs? The modern types of ADs/SRRIs act in very different ways to the old fashioned types and are a valuable way to treat many forms of anxiety, depression and often menopause symptoms as well. If appropriately prescribed these drugs can and do offer great benefits, however taking ADs/SSRIs is still something that many feel is a sign of weakness and we need to change this view if we are to address society's attitude to depression, anxiety and support people with these problems better.

I have experienced life with and without HRT - i feel it is wrong to assume that you will just experience the bad symptoms later when you come off HRT. Nobody can tell us how long meno symptoms will last - for some it is a few months to 2 years, for others it can be 10 or more years. When is a good time to go through this stage - assuming the symptoms do return after HRT?  In our 40s and 50s when we have to work, support our families and older relatives or later when we are retired and have more time to concentrate on ways to cope?
My first 3 year break from HRT (my lost years)was horrible, life was stressful at the time and I kept hoping the symptoms would subside - sadly they didn't.  My second break from HRT 4 years later wasn't nearly so bad and I actually coped quite well apart from the terrible discomfort of the VA and urinary problems.  I have always tried to eat well and do lots of brisk walking etc. but this time I was able to cut back on the amount of work I did - TBH I had to as I was getting so tired through lack of sleep. I decided to go back on HRT for a variety of reasons and I have to say life is sooo much better with HRT.
Have I taken the 'easy approach'? I need to be able to work for at least the next 7 years, I want to be a nice person to live with and not feel tetchy and tired all the time, I don't want to be constantly going to the GP in the hope I will get some magic treatment to help my VA and bladder problems and I want to cuddle my husband without feeling horribly hot.
At 58 I have made the informed choice, knowing there is a small risk of breast cancer, to take the 'easy approach' to getting my energy and quality of life back, not just for myself but also for my family and friends who depend on me being at my best. I am now able to do more work again as well which takes the pressure off my lovely husband.
As Hurdity rightly pointed out, the science and research is telling us a great deal about the ageing process and is trying to help us lead a longer healthier life.
IT IS ENTIRELY UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL WHETHER THEY CHOOSE TO FOLLOW RECOMMENDED ADVICE OR NOT.  We are told to give up smoking but there are those that smoke  and drink into their 80s and 90s without any real problems - our generation have been given more information and it's up to us to make positive choices or take the risks.
Time will tell whether HRT is a truly good idea or not - the research is now swinging more in favour on many fronts.  None of us know what the future will bring - we just have to live in the here and now. 
I feel terribly sorry for those who suffer bad meno symptoms and for one reason or another do not find a way to treat them - this is really tough.
What an awful ramble - so sorry    Dg xxxxx

[peegeetip]

Thanks DG, its good to better understand your journey.

But certainly not a ramble. You covered so much in your great post

I'm hoping by the time I get to 5 years I wont have any doc pestering me to have a break, cut down or stop (if thats why you stopped for a break).

Its a pity so few of us "sail our way through"

Thanks

[BrightLight]

Nobody is frightening anyone into taking HRT!

HRT certainly affected me but also those around me.
I've said a few times I actually felt a failure at the start for taking HRT at all.
This was partly due to how my doc put it across to me but also a general feeling out there that we should put up with a lower quality of life (that I was decending into) and just get on with it.

This gets to the core of where I'm concerned about the way we see and treat peri and meno.
If someone started thyroid or type two diabetes drugs no one would raise an eyelid.
We'd take it gladly from our doctor and understand that our body was not working in the way we'd like.
Why is it when we get to the letter M for menopause we suddenly "loose" our minds and are wracked with the choice we've got to make?
Is it due to all the attitude to it, or the scare stories out there about BC etc(when we are told smoking and alcohol are far more damaging to that part of our body) or feeling less of a woman or the ignorance that exist etc etc.

I totally respect where you are coming from and sorry that you were made to feel this way about taking HRT when you felt and have experienced it's benefit for you. I do disagree about the fear factor - I think fear plays a major part in the topic of HRT and I had no idea and wish it wasn't so.  It should be offered and explained in the same way as any other treatment choice - this forum does a great job of helping women understand it all. I do think there is a lack of support for women that don't take it and find other ways, but perhaps that is because they don't engage online or because the only recognised options are medications of one sort or another (?)

I really can appreciate that we all approach things differently, I would not class the menopause in the same category as diabetes or thyroid conditions unless it was ovarian failure at a young age.  These are real and permanent 'failures' of the body. Saying that, I also don't dispute that ongoing and challenging symptoms shouldn't be treated with hormone replacement, it is a hormonal imbalance and HRT is the proven remedy in medical terms.  I do wonder why so many people on here don't seem to feel good though - that the imbalance continues in some way, but perhaps I am mis-reading and that's only at the start when sorting out the regime etc.

I also think that this forum is invaluable for anyone taking HRT - there is no way on this planet I could imagine visiting my doctor with all sorts of questions or concerns when taking it - I would be left to get on with it.  That's another concern of mine - you ladies that 'manage' your own treatment are braver than I am and that's another aspect of the fear for me.

My partner recently had to start taking a medication and the side effects and changes to his body have been quite profound, it's the first time either of us have taken anything long term and I have to be honest it's caused so much stress.  He feels unwell in a different way but isn't actually unwell (?)  That's just what happens I suppose - he tried, as I will to balance things in life to avoid medication but it didn't work.