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Author Topic: Hi from a newbie and need some advice  (Read 7672 times)

juliekim

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Hi from a newbie and need some advice
« on: December 30, 2013, 05:35:17 PM »

Hi, my name is Julie and I am almost 52 and very pleased to have found your website! I need some help! I started having hot flushes a week before my 50th birthday which I managed successfully with Menoforce sage tablets by A Vogel for a year.  It then stopped being effective and I went the natural progesterone route, which unfortunately did not work for me.  I have tried lots of herbal tinctures, tablets, tea and organic soya too but no success! I have done a couple of saliva tests to see my testosterone/progesterone and oestrogen levels and progesterone and oestrogen were both low.  Interestingly the progesterone level did go up significantly after using natural progesterone even though it had no effect on hot flushes or sleepless nights. My oestrogen level is below that of a women after the menopause.  I have done masses of research into the best and most natural routes into the body and luckily my GP was happy to oblige with a prescription for Estrogel and Utrogestan vaginal capsules. I am using just one pump (ie 0.75mg) of Estrogel and have only been using it for 10 days, so a bit early for results.  My question is about using Utrogestan - I have been  prescribed 200mg, but notice on different forums that some people use 100mg transvaginally too. My last period was in May of this year and January before that, so I was wondering if I should use it every three months for 7, 10 or 12 days. I notice Professor John Studd recommends 7 days but is that enough if I only use it every 3 months? I would really appreciate some advice! Many thanks and apologies for lengthy post!
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Taz2

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Re: Hi from a newbie and need some advice
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2013, 06:03:41 PM »

Hi juliekim - I just wanted to welcome you to the forum.

I'm not really too sure of the answer to your question but others will be along soon who are on the same regime as you to give their advice.

Taz x  :welcomemm:
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juliekim

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Re: Hi from a newbie and need some advice
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2013, 06:20:01 PM »

Thank you Taz! Looking at other newbie questions, I feel like others are much more in need!  Unfortunately I was diagnosed with ME almost 8 years ago and I am wondering if there could be a link with the drop in hormones in your 40's as many females are diagnosed with this condition at this time.  I have not had a full night's sleep in almost two years which doesn't help me get better!!
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Hurdity

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Re: Hi from a newbie and need some advice
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2013, 07:48:51 PM »

Hi juliekim

 :welcomemm: from me too!

Glad to hear you have been prescribed body-identical hormones and do hope they work for you. I was like you - trying herbal and other remedies when I started getting flushes etc but only HRT worked to relieve symptoms - and of course the oestrogen is beneficial for long term health as well.

Your question re utrogestan is not straightforward to answer!

Firstly - the amount of progesterone needed to oppose oestrogen (when used as HRT) is dose dependent - ie the more oestrogen you have, the more progesterone you will need to prevent the lwomb lining thickening too much (from the oestrogen), or to shed it monthly.

Secondly the licensed dose of Utrogestan is for oral use (as you say - 200 mg for 12 days per month) but must be sufficient for a wide range of oestrogen doses - which are however not specified.

However you are on a low dose of estrogel so, because of this "one size fits all" progesterone dose it is doubtful you would need as much as someone who has two pumps. I think some women use the same dose of utrogestan (ie 300 mg) for 4 pumps of gel too. Having said that you may well find that you want to increase your estrogel as you get further into menopause and your own oestrogen levels drop.

As you have read, many women like to use utrogestan vaginally - especially those who are progesterone intolerant, because the side effects are minimised. It is not licensed for vaginal use in UK although many private and some NHS practitioners are happy to prescribe it under supervision.

In France the dose for vaginal use is given as the same as for oral ( I have a translation of the French instructions) although limited trials have shown that more usable progesterone is obtained through vaginal use ( because it gets straight to the womb) than through oral use (where it has to go through the liver so more is lost asnd excreted before getting to the womb).

Many of us on here therefore are making our own decisions on the amount to use vaginally - but this is only to be done with caution as you cannot know how your own body will react.

Regarding the amount of time to take it each month or the length of the cycle - again several of us have used our knowledge from what we've read, as well as what others have reported from their private consultations - to reduce the amount of time we take the progesterone per month, or lengthen the cycle - especially if used vaginally.

You have to be aware that Prof Studd's recommendations (of 7 days progesterone per month) are the minimum needed, but only under supervision - and really only for those women who are severely progesterone intolerant and for whom the bad side effects of the progesterone would make it impossible for them to stay on it for longer. He recommends for such women a lower tolerance of vaginal bleeding before scanning - in other words there is definitely a greater risk of endometrial hyperplasia (thickening of womb lining - whoich can lead to womb cancer) on these lower/shorter progesterone regimes. This has been shown from trials.

I would not advise using Utrogestan for 7 days every 3 months, and nor would Prof Studd. This would not be enough for most women. I suggest using it orally as prescribed for the first few months and see what sort of bleed you get and how you tolerate the Utrogestan. Alternatively you could try using it (ie the 200 mg) vaginally for say 9 days and see how you get on.

There are women on here using all sorts of different regimes - but many of us are doing it by trial and error, but trying to err on the safe side too.

I hope this is helpful in explaining some of the issues re varying the regime of utrogestan from the standard and will encourage you to find what is best for you.

Hoever just a final word of caution - any deviation from the licensed dose could cause problems and it is well to be vigilant, and if necessary ask for a referral to a menopause clinic so that you can be prescribed a differetn dose officially.

Hurdity x
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CLKD

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Re: Hi from a newbie and need some advice
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2013, 07:49:48 PM »

ME is often associated with 'flu like illnesses, ones which stress the immune system. 

Welcome!  Have a browse of the menus, left of screen.  Do a 'search' for your prescription to see what others are taking.  Browse round and have a look-see.

Ortho-Gynest pessaries - after the first 3 weeks of evening use I now insert one pessary twice a week and would suggest that you use your prescription every week regardless of a bleed or not.

We have a 'funny' room too  ;)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 07:55:08 PM by CLKD »
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juliekim

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Re: Hi from a newbie and need some advice
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2013, 08:36:46 PM »

Thank you so much for such a informative reply Hurdity!  I have read past posts and see you are an expert! I have been prescribed 200mg for vaginal use with applicators, so will try using it for 9 or 10 days every month over the next two months and see how I get on.  My GP had never even heard of Utrogestan or Estrogel, so she could not give me any advice. Should I wait until I have used the Estrogel for so many days before using Utrogestan? Also I was aware of the progesterone/estradiol ratio being important hence my concerns about using 200mg of Utrogestan for, say 12 days every month, if I am only using one pump of Estrogel at the moment.  I do see it is trial and error and feel 'low and slow' approach when using hormones is going to be better for the body to adapt. It is hard when you feel you are doing it on your own and I very much appreciate being able to pick your brains!! Thank you

And thank you CLKD - my ME did initially start with flu-like symptoms, but am wondering if the dip in hormones can make us susceptible by hindering the body's recovery from. say, a bad virus. Thank you all for replying, it is so nice to know there is support out there!! x
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Taz2

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Re: Hi from a newbie and need some advice
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2013, 09:10:30 PM »

I was also told that I had M.E. in my mid forties but after researching the condition I discovered that I actually had fibromyalgia which is definitely linked into poor quality sleep. Because it was fibro and not M.E. I was prescribed amitryptiline which really helped with the sleep and pain problems.

Taz x
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Hurdity

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Re: Hi from a newbie and need some advice
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2013, 09:12:31 PM »

Hi again juliekim - not really an expert - but as I use it then I've looked into it quite a lot too. Just to emphasise also that I'm not a doctor - well not a medical one - so any advice on here doesn't replace your GP or gynae.

The normal dose for a monthly cycle would be to use Estrogel for 16 days and Utrogestan for the last 12. If you are using it vaginally then I would say you can go for a longer cycle. However as you are not yet post-meno - you don;t know if your own hormones are going to kick in and add to the mix.

I forgot to say (but you may have read) that I use Utrogestan vaginally 200 mg for 12 days in each 6 weeks cycle, along with Estradot 50 mcg ( approx equivalent to two pumps of estrogel), but as I am 60 and post-meno - I don't produce oestrogen from my ovaries so I know the dosage is consistent. This is fine for me although I did have some unexplained bleeding earlier in the year and a thickened lining - although after investigation no problems were found apart from very small fibroid. After this I changed my cycle from 2 months to 6 weeks. I still have a bleed but it's not big, but the Utrogestan makes me tired by the time I get to the end of the course, and the withdrawal few days affects me too. When I am back to oestrogen only, and I have got rid of the excess progesterone, I am fine, with a clear head and as much energy as expected for my age and stage of menopause!

I agree that hormone deficiencies affect our well-being and I am sure contribute to (lack of) recovery from viruses. There are schools of thought (eg thyroid UK) that consider some cases of ME or chronic fatigue could be mainly due to hormone deficiencies - of which oestrogen, testosterone or thyroid hormone, can be the cause. Sadly I don't think doctors are thorough enough in tests and eg do not test women routinely for testosterone, nor consider women on borderline thyroid levels could be suffering from symptoms. Several women on here have mentioned similar conditions having improved dramatically after appropriate hormone replacement.

Anyway I hope it works for you!

Hurdity x
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juliekim

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Re: Hi from a newbie and need some advice
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2013, 10:40:16 PM »

Thank you Taz - I take something called Armour Thyroid as my flu-like symptoms turned into acute thyroiditis which I have had twice in the last 7 years and have left me with hypothyrodism which along with adrenal issues underlines my fatigue.

And thanks for sharing your experiences as well as giving me advice Hurdity - I am a member of Thyroid Patient Advocacy UK and they have helped me a lot! I note there is a utrogestan/oestrogel support group post going on so will keep reading it!

Thank you again, I really do appreciate it

Julie xx

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andius

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Re: Hi from a newbie and need some advice
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2013, 05:53:06 AM »


HI juliekim:

Just wanted to say that taking thyroid can change the actual amount of estrogen available to your body for use....has something to do with sex hormone binding globulin. You might research into this regarding your hormone doses.

Also, I use an estrogen patch and take progesterone every night orally.  My estrogen patch dose is .075 now and I am taking 100mg progesterone orally in a continuous regimen and I have no bleeds.  My lining was .3 before I started last March and just had it checked last week....still .3, so obviously the progesterone dose I am on is enough for ME on my current estrogen dose.  Everyone is different.  It may take some monitoring to know for sure what you can get away with on the progesterone dose. I did try 150 mg progesterone once and after 4 days....I had worse problems with my bladder. Obviously, some women are not as sensitive in this way, but are sensitive to the other side effects of progesterone so they take it sequentially and have bleeds.  Trials are your friend!

Andius
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juliekim

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Re: Hi from a newbie and need some advice
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2013, 06:50:42 PM »

Thank you Andius,

I have read that estrogen can interfere with cellular untilisation of thyroid hormone whereas progesterone can help facilitate it- according to Dr John Lee's books.

Thank you for letting me know what you are on and your experience of a little more progesterone.

I will see how I get on - I am still getting hot flushes using just one pump of Estrogel, so I will probably go up to two pumps which I think is 1.5mg after a fortnight of trying the former (or maybe I should wait a month??)  Re the progesterone - I think I am only wary of trying 200mg initially as, again, I have read that normal corpus luteum output is 20-25mg per day, so 200mg sounds so much! But as you say, I just need to try it and see!

Thank you again,

Julie x
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ellie66

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Re: Hi from a newbie and need some advice
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2013, 11:10:25 PM »

Julie hop on over to our Oestrogel/Utogestan support thread and Happy New Year  :)
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juliekim

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Re: Hi from a newbie and need some advice
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2014, 09:32:56 AM »

Thanks Ellie,

I will be reading that avidly from now on!!  Happy New Year to you too!!  :)
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