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[heavenlyblue]

Morning Ladies

First of all, just wanted to check in with you all and hope you are coping with the madness of the world we are living in at the moment.  Have been thinking of you all. 

An update and advice needed - if anyone is around @hurdity

Just a recap.

When I first saw my private Dr, Dr McCulloch, last Oct, she took a hormone test.  I had been on 50mcg Evoril Conti on the NHS and had awful migraines, hot flushes, exhaustion, aches, liver pains, vertigo.....you name it...?..and I was getting nowhere with the Doctors at my Surgery.

These were my results.

22.10.2019

Oestradiol - 44 pmol/L
SHBG - 64 nmol/L
Testosterone - 0.4 nmol/L

She was quite shocked at how low my levels were.  She put me on 3 pumps per day of Oestrogel (applied on thighs)) and a thumb sized amount of Testogel (inner arm) - see how I go for 3 months. I also take 1 x 100mg capsule utrogestan orally at night.


3 months later


31.1.2020

Oestradiol - 171 pmol/L
SHBG - 71 nmol/L
Testosterone - 0.5 nmol/L

So as you can see, neither my testosterone or oestrogen seem to be absorbing very well.

Dr McCulloch told me to increase to 4 x pumps a day and do a larger amount of testosterone and still take 1 x Utrogestan orally at night.    I have been following this regime for just over 2 months now and feel no better, although have felt a slight change in my libido, but barely anything really.    I did mention to her when I saw her about not taking Utrogestan every day and she said I could try not taking it for 2 weeks then doubling up the next 2 weeks.   I have not tried this yet. 

Do you really think taking Utrogestan every day could really be the culprit for me feeling so exhausted?  Or perhaps my skin just does not absorb gel very well and I will have to go back to a patch.

Obviously with this virus situation, I do not have a follow up appt booked but I do have a hormone kit at home, which she gave me last time, which I am going to do, very interested to see what my results are.   The results will be emailed to her and she will then email me and we will take it from there. 

I just haven't felt well for 3 1/2 years now, been with the NHS and now a private Doctor and yes I have made strides with the migraines and hot flushes but I just can't understand why I still feel dreadful and have no 'joie de vivre'.  If I read one more interview from a 50 something celeb or non celeb...........saying 'how much they are enjoying their 50s...?..or HRT has given them their life back......'..??.will that ever be me saying that?   I feel like I have just been existing ever since I turned 50, I'm now 54...?...this virus has given us all the message......we only have one life, you don't know what is around the corner so we need to make it count...?..:-(

It's hard to differentiate between what is being caused by low hormones and am I just feeling awful and low because I have been feeling poorly for so long.  Bit of a vicious cycle.

Thank you for your time, I know we are all going through a lot of difficult things at the moment - stay safe everyone xxx

[Julia Dizzy]

Heavenlyblue it could have been me that wrote that last post! I sympathise with everything you said and feel exactly the same. Its such a struggle to find out what is the best thing to do!

I'm 63 and since last October when I saw a gynaecologist at my local Menopause clinic have been using 2 pumps estrogel, 100mg Utrogestan daily at night and use 1 pump Tostran gel every 3rd night. I haven't felt well for a long time (I have no major illness though) and thought HRT might do the trick to restore my get up and go but my bones and muscles seem to ache more - especially my hips, knees and feet, my anxiety hasn't gone, I am tired and achy, have breast pain, reflux and generally feel like my body is seizing up!
The only positive thing I can say for HRT is the hot flushes which were a nightmare have gone now, and a slight improvement with VA (am on Vagifem every 3rd night for that too).

I haven't had a hormone level test done as he didn't suggest it, but am thinking of getting one done privately and paying for it just to see if it is my levels or just that I feel rubbish anyway! I agree with you about reading stories of HRT miracles and wish I felt like that too!! I have tried increasing gel dose to 3 pumps on his suggestion but that made my breasts even more sore and he said maybe that was too much for me. Have thought about just stopping everything but unsure of what to do for the best.

Thank you Hurdity for your advice on the Utrogestan, I'm wondering if I am intolerant?

Yes, the world is crazily scary just now and it is very hard not to worry about how it will all be in the future, it's nice to be able to discuss our worries on here and share stories. I wish everyone the very best to stay safe and well and let's keep talking! xxx

[Ladybt28]

The only thing I can say to you both is that there is hope and there are success stories of which I am one but and here comes the BIG but, it wasn't quick or even remotely on target for the kind of timescales that doctors can quote.  Having been "ill" with nearly a the whole list of meno symptoms (its easier to write what I haven't had - primarily VA) for more than 5 years and with the anxiety symptoms, achy joints, insomnia, fatigue, and brain fog going off the scale for nearly 3 years I finally got onto the oestrogel, utrogestan and testosterone regime.  Then the hard work started...I had to tweak and wait and tweak and wait until 7 months after starting there was a light at the end of the tunnel.  It was only the light but "something" however brief was working and so I carried on a persevered and 18 months in I have a life!

I too started conservatively with the gel and within 4 weeks of starting my GP told me to up to 4 pumps and yes I still had anxiety and I got sore boobs and a couple of other things like weird itching but I didn't stop and drop the pumps. What I learned was that my body wasn't saying this is too much, it was saying I'm just not used to this. After a full 5 months of 4 pumps and treating the other "weird stuff" with paracetamol, melatonin for insomnia and anti histamine for itching, it all went away and I felt relatively normal (well compared to where I started).  I carried on until I was 18 months in and I had got rid of all my symptoms or if they hadn't gone they were only very minor then my body threw a bit of fit and decided that 4 pumps was too much, it had reached a level to live on and so I had to drop to 2 pumps and I have been on 2 pumps quite happily for the last 2 months or so. 

I have written many times that I think that those of us who have serious longterm ongoing symptoms appear to take very much longer to get our bodies to move into balance and whilst they are trying to get there it appears they get a few more other symptoms before it all falls into place.  I can only speak from my experience but if I had given up on the 4 pumps because of sore boobs and the fact the other symptoms didnt seem to be settling I wouldnt be where I am today which is better than I have been in 20 years because it turns out some of my hormonal problems were there before peri and meno.

You can only try and persevere and listen to your own body.  I pushed through because I had no other choice, giving up wasnt an option for me but that is not the case for everyone.

Thats the gel bit and for the utrogestan I use 200mg x 12 days vaginally not orally on a long 6 week cycle and have a bleed although I am 58 and post meno.  I cannot take progesterone continuously, it messes with my head but after 5 cycles any "side effects" (prefer to call them reactions) also settled completely.  My testosterone is 2 x per week and it took 5 months to get my libido back and my "bits" functioning properly.

I have never had blood tests ever for anything and I have only ever been treated for controlling symptoms.
As I said I can only talk from my own experience but maybe your bodies are still going "hey I'm not used to this yet" or "help you are not taking this stuff the way I can use it".  Yep its a real tough call and no right or wrong way to go about it either I think.  As long as you stay within guidelines which doesnt mean prescribed guidelines but just general guidelines and dont do anything outside what you might read on here has been prescribed by a consultant then if it suits you and it works go right on ahead and try is what I say.

[jojo h]

I'm 57 haven't had a period for 4 years, have been taking Utrogestan 100mg every night continuously and Estrogel 2 pumps for just over a year, but for the past few months  I have suffered from very severe acid reflux, had a couple of small bleeds, acne on my face both cheeks, I didn't have this as a teenager so I'm amazed I have it now & just generally feeling awful. Could this be the Utrogeston? I have seen a Gynaecologist and had a scan which was fine. Unfortunately when I ask the Gynaecologist if she thought I should stop the Utrogestan and Estrogel or take the tablet vaginally, her reply was it's up to you🙄 I'm at a total loss now, any help or advise would really be appreciated. 😊

[Hurdity]

Hi jojo h

Yes if you take the utrogestan vaginally this wil hopefully prevent the digestive problems that some women experience from oral use. I can't comment on the acne. Are your menopausal symptoms otherwise improved on this regime?

Hurdity x

[jojo h]

Hello Hurdity.
Thanks for replying. 😊 Should I take the Utrogestan vaginally every night or every other night? I'm a Migraine sufferer and it has helped enormously. I was also having palpitations and night sweats which I don't have now. What seems to have upset my hormones in the last few months was upping the Estrogel from two pumps to three on the advice of the migraine clinic. I'm now back to two pumps.
Jo x

[Sammiejane]

heavenly blue

have you tried applying gel to outer arms

i used to use on my inner thighs but didn't obsorb took a break as felt awful this time round 9 weeks now i apply on outer arms and although my arms have fatterned up a bit from the gel i?m obsorbing loads better 435 pmol as opposed to 113 pmol on inner thighs x

[Hurdity]

Hello Hurdity.
Thanks for replying. 😊 Should I take the Utrogestan vaginally every night or every other night? I'm a Migraine sufferer and it has helped enormously. I was also having palpitations and night sweats which I don't have now. What seems to have upset my hormones in the last few months was upping the Estrogel from two pumps to three on the advice of the migraine clinic. I'm now back to two pumps.
Jo x

If you move to take it vaginally you should use the licensed dose of 100 mg nightly and see how you get on. If after a couple of months you don't experience any bleeding then with the agreement of your doctor you could trial the alternate day regime which is more likely to protect the endoemtrium on low or medium doses of oestrogen ie up to 2 pumps. Greater than that (eg 3 pumps) could lead to breakthrough bleeding with the alternate day dosage.

Hurdity x

[jojo h]

Thank you Hurdity 😊x

[DownDillie]

I wondered if I could have people's views on my trials with Utro and Oestrodial.

About 3 years ago I was prescribed Sandrena gel 1mg and 100mg Utro to be taken continuously. I am years post-meno. I didn't use a full sachet every night, maybe half to three quarters. That worked fine for a while and eventually relieved the extreme mental symptoms I'd been having.

Over a year ago, I did start using the whole 1mg sachet and a couple of months later I had some small amount of bleeding, which was investigated. My womb lining was 6mm, which I know is too much. I'm not sure if this means the Utro isn't doing its job well enough, no one has been able to tell me.

I've experimented a couple of times with taking Utro vaginally. When I took the Utro vaginally every night, I started to bleed profusely after about a week. I stopped everything completely until the bleeding stopped. Recently I've tried taking it every second night, again after a week the bleeding has started, not quite as profuse but a lot.

So the question is - does the bleeding mean I am now taking too much Utro - or does it mean I wasn't taking enough before? Should I persevere with the Utro vaginally?

I am toying with the idea of giving up HRT altogether but I am worried I will sink back into that life-isn't-worth-living pit of despair I was in before. I struggle with anxiety, indecisiveness, panic over minor things, self-flagellation (figuratively!) over everything I've ever done. The worst symptom is the feeling of high-alert, high-stress, where I am constantly clutching my chest trying to calm myself down. I feel the Utro exacerbates this symptom, hence the switch to vaginal use. I think it is better that way but the bleeding is confusing me.

To be honest, for some years now I've felt that I am merely existing, not living. I don't look forward to anything, I can't remember the last time I felt content or happy or at peace. I don't know if this is it for ever more  .

Any experiences or views would be most welcome.

[Hurdity]

Hi DownDillie

When utrogestan is used vaginally then it is more effective at working on and protecting the uterus lining than the same dose used orally. If your lining was 6 mm following bleeding after you increased the dose then if you carried on with the same dose and delivery method your womb lining could continue to very slowly grow over the months. Then when you changed to vaginal method,  the prog was doing a better job, and the most likely explanation for the bleed is that the slightly overthickened lining was coming away.

Obviously you might want to raise this with your doctor but one way to get rid of the thickened lining is to stop the progesterone completely for a week and then you will have a proper bleed. Then when you restart you could then restart vaginal use and see how it went from there? Another alternative which would have the same effect (of shedding any built up lining) would be too take it cyclically for a few months so this would mean taking 200 mg ( ie two balls not one) vaginally for 12 days per month, say for 3 months and then start again with a new regime ( eg back to previous but vaginally) in the hope that there would be no more bleeding.

Another reason for the bleeding could be a fibroid or a polyp but these might have been picked up from the scan especially if it was transvaginal? Finally if you've had endometriosis there can be random bleeding on HRT.

If HRT generally has helped your symptoms then it's a question of tweaking the regime so that you don't bleed when you don't want to and your lining stays thin.

By the way, like Birdy, I also feel much worse on the progesterone. I have pretty much only ever taken it cyclically and a long cycle at that (12 days every 6-7 weeks usually), for this reason, but the downside is having a bleed, and I'm in mid 60's  .  However still better that, and have at least 4 weeks maybe more of feeling good and alert, and put up with the two weeks of feeling less good, the odd migraine (and the horrible bleed and cramps).

I definitely feel much much better than only just existing. I can't say I feel on top of the world with the zest and drive I had while fertile but still I feel pretty good considering my age and stage . You might even need a bit more oestrogen? However I would try the different progesterone regimes first and get the dose right for your womb lining .....

Hope this helps?

Hurdity x

[Tallulah]

Hello, hope this is the right place to put this post. I'm on my second month of cyclical estrogel and Ustrogestan.
Ive been feeling terribly sick and stomach cramps I think with the gel?
I've also not had a bleed when I stopped the Ustrogestan over a week ago, so I've contiued as normal with the gel, then I'll start the Ustrogestan again, but I thought I was meant to bleed so bit worried something isn't working right?  any advice would be much appreciated. Thank you.

[Hugsneeded1958]

Help been on vagifem for few years occasionally. Last 2 years had to up to 2x week.but every 3/4month get low dull cramping bloated need wee.stinging on lady parts.i was told can use vagifem for life and can up and down accordingly up to 5 or7 times week when needed.has anyone else had these feelings. When up vagifem it improves again.i had hysterectomy 16 years ago after fybroids and 2 year later prolapse so had sacrolpolpexopy to repair it still have ovaries. I am 62 in August and fed up with this symptoms. Dr renee is great on utube.she gave me advice on amout vagifem use.i use yes lubricant inbetween vagifem which helps.

[Suzysheb]

Hi Everyone

I have just started Oestrogel and will move to the progesterone part soon - Ustrogestan.  I'm really worried about this as I'm doing OK on the Oestrogel - but have heard terrible things about this.
Can anyone reassure me that its OK and they are getting on well with it.  I also didn't realise that I would have periods? is this the case - my meno doctor did not really explain this to me.

thanks
Suzysheb

[JC06]

Hello everyone...finding your chats very interesting as I've been prescribed Oestrogel/utrogestan combo & have been baffled about dosage. Initially used Femseven sequi  then Evorel sequi & now another change due to ongoing availability. I'm 50, peri with erratic periods & on meds for high blood pressure. No hot flushes to speak of but anxiety, brain mush, mood swings etc. She's prescription came with no dosage 're oestrogen & to take 1 tablet days 1-25. I checked the leaflet & it said 2 tabs days 15-26. Called Dr who said it made no difference & was up to me & do 1 pump of gel. Is this dosage the same as evorel sequi patches? Going to take tabs days 15-26 as this seems to follow what I'm currently doing with patch. I so want the patches to come back as they work for me & I'm worried about tablets due to high blood pressure. Any advice would be great. Thanks