Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Katia]

Annie, I think you leave it to soak in. I'm new to it too.  I'm starting to think it's better absorbed (for me) through the thighs.

[Annie0710]

Cool thanks.   It does seem pretty good at soaking in, god knows where I'd put a third pump if I need to increase !

[Hurdity]

It's not really designed to be rubbed in as such (in contrast to creams) although I know some women do so. The oestrogen is contained within the gel which consists of various compounds including alcohol. As I understand it the estradiol is absorbed through the skin while it is still wet and until all the alcohol has evaporated. The dosage, absorption and resultant serum concentrations of estradiol are based ( presumably) on women applying it consistently by spreading it. I have heard that some consultants advocate rubbing it onto the skin but I don't know how this would affect absorption except perhaps by stimulating the blood supply close to the skin maybe and facilitating the diffusion process ( thinking aloud here!). Judging by testosterone gel - if it is anything like this I could envisage rubbing could be quite messy and result in loss of some gel on fingers/hands?

"The application of a hydro-alcoholic
gel containing estradiol results in a rapid
penetration of the estrogens into the stratum
corneum; this stops after drying of the gel on the
skin. As the absorption is proportional to the
surface of application, deviations from the instructions
may cause variations in the estrogen
level and clinical efficacy. About 10% of the dose
is absorbed by the skin during the 2 min until
drying. The estradiol is stored in the stratum
corneum and permeates through the epidermis
into the dermal capillaries according to the
concentration gradient between the stratum corneum
and blood. This diffusion lasts for 2–14 h.
The two available gel preparations differ in their
concentration and mode of application."

From Kuhl 2005 paper on oestrogens and progestogens.

Hurdity x

[Hurdity]

I'm wondering if a lot of my symptoms may be estrogen withdrawal. As Hurdity said Femodene is  synthetic and is a pill so will be more potent. Although I thought the pill was higher in progesterone.

Hurdity - do you think it is estrogen withdrawal?  If so do you think I should up to 4 pumps for now?
How long does estrogen withdrawal last?  At the minute, I don't know if I'm having too little or too much.

For the Utrogestan, I'm thinking of going the vaginal route.  Even thought it seems to have the same side effects as oral I'm thinking I won't need the two hours after food so I can take it earlier and won't feel as groggy the following morning.  Am I right, or will the two hour still apply?

The headache seems to have lifted a bit now.  xx

Katia - no-one can say why you are feeling as you do - except that it is sure to be something to do with hormonal increase or decrease!!! Reduction in oestrogen is thought to be the cause of hot flushes and sweats and in some women this persists for years  even in the absence of any further decline in oestrogen. However with changing HRT type - hopefully your body will adjust to the different way of getting oestrogen.

Re the utrogestan - actually the side effects may well be different when taken by the different routes because the metabolic by-products of utrogestan are different and more numerous when taken orally - and it is these compounds which give rise to some of the depressive side effects. Some women of course also feel the effect of progesterone whichever route as expected and like during the normal menstrual cycle - because it does have a sedative effect and in addition larger doses have to be given to ensure that sufficient gets to the uterus. After all it is not like the ovary pumping out a consistent steady dose into the system. You don't need to worry about food with vaginal application and there is nothing wrong with taking utro with food - it just might give more side effects because there is higher bio-availability with food.

I agree with Cassie - try not to analyse how you are feeling every day, and don't be in too much of a hurry to change your dose etc. Hang in there and give it time!

Hurdity x

[Katia]

Thanks Hurdity. It's so difficult when last week I felt good andnhad everything going for me and this week I'm falling apart. My gums are bleeding now, which I'm sure is something to do with hormones too and my tongue has a black tinge. These are all so worrying as I've never had anything more than a cold in my life.  I've  also had indigestion which I've never had before too. 

I found the best day with the Utrogestan was when I took it earlier, but I was starving so it wouldn't work on a regular basis to do that. I didn't realise food would increase side effects, I thought it would be the other way around.  If I know that this was much lower than Femodene and that these symptoms were low estrogen, I'd up it to four pumps for now and then reduce to 3 in a couple of months. I have an appointment with my GP and I'm back at the consultants in about a month.  I'm trying to give it until then.  I do feel a bit better today having skipped to Utrogestan last night.

[Hurdity]

I can't remember whether you are supposed to be taking it cyclically or not (the utro) ie you are peri-menopausal, and the dose you are taking?

Hurdity x

[Katia]

The consultant gave me the choice. The GP prescribed 100mg 25 days. The consultant thinks I'm peri. I'm 50, but because I've been on Femodene it's hard to tell. Taking it earlier seems to be the key for me. I don't feel groggy today. I'm sure Femodene would have had a lot more progesterone.

I was awake at 3am with night sweats and burning knees. Because of this, hot flashes and the concern with my gums I'm thinking to up the gel to 4 pumps until it gets going.  The strange thing is I never had these symptoms with a few days off Femodene, but they started in day 1 with the gel. Some of them have subsided a bit.

[Hurdity]

Ah yes I remember - I think some of us suggested that proper cyclical HRT (shorter duration of Utro) might be more appropriate if you are still peri-menopausal so if you find you are not tolerating it then perhaps try the 200 mg x 12 days. and see what happens. If you use it vaginally then you might be able to get away with the lower dose (100 mg x 12 days) but would need to do this under medical supervision until you know which dose is sufficient to protect your endometrium (or have a private scan - at least after the first year perhaps if not regularly).

Hurdity x

[Katia]

Hurdity, I was wondering if it was the progesterone that was low as I would be used to more with the pill.  I've also just read that we still keep 60% of our estrogen but lose more progesterone. 

I added an extra pump this morning, so 2 morning, 2 evening, but my face seems to be burning a bit more than yesterday at the moment.  I'll see how today goes. If it wasn't for the dryness and the bleeding gums I'd stick at 3.  I feel like I'm fading already and it's only 10am so it's certainly not giving me energ. 

I'll give it another week with the utro as it is and see.  It seems to be ok if I take it about 6-7pm. 

[Hurdity]

You shouldn't experience adverse symptoms from lower progestogens (including progesterone)- actually the reverse is more likely. The progesterone withdrawal symptoms that women experience either after stopping progestogens or after reducing considerably - are a temporary phenomenon and the symptoms disappear once progesterone has left the system. We only have high levels of progesterone -  in the middle of the second half of the menstrual cycle and during pregnancy, but as far as is known, we can function perfectly well on the low levels in post-menopause ( and during the first part of the menstrual cycle).

Hope you feel better soon

Hurdity x

[Katia]

Hurdity, wouldn't the pill have supplied consistent high progesterone levels?  I was also reading that we need more progesterone, that's what was making me wonder if the 100mg was too low. 

I've decided to give it another week and then weigh it up against Femodene.  The consultant said it was my decision, so I think both him and my GP would be ok with me going back on Femodene.  I'm a bit old for it at 50, but other than that I'm low risk.  It just seems like the HRT may be too much of a rollercoaster for me.  My gums and vagina are also a big concern.  I just didn't expect all these changes and falling to bits switching from one to another.

[Cassie]

Are you sure you do not have gingivitis, thus,  the bleeding gums, perhaps try an oral mouth rinse for a few days or just rinse with warm salt water am sure it is not connected to the HRT at all.

[Katia]

Cassie, I think it is somehow connected with the estrogen and the saliva.  The estrogen and progesterone in Femodene is probably much higher and more potent than the HRT.  It just started this week with the HRT.  I'm assuming it's to do with the mouth being drier.  Down there went the same, nothing.

I upped to 4 pumps yesterday which has increased saliva/vaginal fluids a bit and has made me feel better, but I had diarrhoea this morning and a heat rash on my stomach.  I'm going to go back to 3 and see how it goes this week.  I don't seem to be having side effects from the utrogestan now.   

I've gained 4lbs in a week!!!  The consultant told me HRT doesn't put weight on, but the pill does, so I'm not sure what's happened, but I'm hoping it will come off.

I think some of this is because most people who start HRT are going up in hormones, whereas I'm going down.
I'm also wondering if my own hormones will take a while to get going as I've taken the pill for 30 years - Hurdity, do you think this is the case and may be why I require more gel?

[Katia]

Has anyone experienced an increase in breast size where they have felt slightly denser?

I increased to four pumps today. The four pumps helped with the fluids and burning, but I think I'm will go back to three because of My breasts and I woke with a rash in my stomach. Will my breasts go back?

The first few days on this regime, my stomach was so lovely and flat. Mis this the Utrogestan?  Now I feel I'm gaining weight by the day and getting round. It's only been a week and 4 lbs on without changing my eating. I'd changed from the pill so was actually expecting to lose

[catlike]

Hey ladies

I'm subbed to this thread. Just wanted to add my experience re the estrogel absorption( Besins). I have found that I need to rub it in... leaving to dry didn't work so well for me. I also take it in small blobs throughout the day and eve rather than big doses all at once.

Also, with a Besins estrogen gel in a tube that I bought over internet,  I found I had to let dry! Bizarre- but that is my experience.