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Menopause Matters magazine ISSUE 75 out now. (Spring issue, March 2024)

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Author Topic: Review of blood tests (a rant)  (Read 897 times)

Peri2022

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Review of blood tests (a rant)
« on: March 19, 2024, 04:46:13 PM »

Hi lovely ladies, I’ve recently seen my GP for a full HRT review and bloods after being on Estradot 50mcg and Utro 200mg (sequential) for about a year. Overall I feel good and most of my meno symptoms have eased apart from extreme fatigue on busy days.

I know hormonal blood tests are of limited use but my oestrogen is still low at 150 and my testosterone low at 0.5. My GP is happy to prescribe testosterone but I wonder if I should first try upping my oestrogen? Only problem is that she says I’ll need to balance it with more Utro if I go up to 75mcg Estradot or above, and I really really hate Utro!

Also, annoyingly my triglycerides (part of cholesterol) are high and my HbA1c is borderline high even though I already have a very healthy diet, don’t drink, I exercise and am a ‘normal’ BMI. GP wasn’t too worried and said ‘that’s just perimenopause’ but it does worry me a bit.

I just feel like I can’t get my health under control in spite of working so hard to do so. I used to be very healthy with no meds which I know is a privilege but now I feel at a total loss as to how to optimise my drugs and my lifestyle! It’s just quite overwhelming.

If anyone has had hormone levels similar to these, or been in a similar health situation, I’d love to hear from you. I feel a little better just ranting already.

I tried to vent to hubby but he just said, oh yeah we’re all getting old, all the same stuff is happening to me.

I don’t think so!  :(
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CLKD

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Re: Review of blood tests (a rant)
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2024, 04:49:52 PM »

MEN  >:(. - listening with half an ear was he?

Borderline high - we have a healthy diet but had to begin statins, which raised my blood sugar levels.  Damned if I don't, worries the GP is I do continue with them  ::).  Me I don't worry.  As long as I can get out of bed and enjoy the day, I try not to think too much: night time however ........  :D

A rant does us good  ;D ..........  :cuss:.  However, it's The Change - does what is says on the tin so we shouldn't expect to be the same health wise as we were until peri symptoms kicked in.  Adjustment can be difficult because various health issues may become noticeable.   

What's the worst that could happen?
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Peri2022

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Re: Review of blood tests (a rant)
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2024, 05:08:53 PM »

Thanks CLKD, I am trying to be relaxed about everything but as you say, it's a huge 'Change', and nothing in my body seems to be working as it has for the last 46 years! Goodness, my oestrogen levels are still so low, I shudder to think what they must have been like prior to HRT. No wonder I felt so awful.

Still keen to hear from anyone else in a similar boat, or just anyone who wants to join my rant! I was hoping my blood tests would give me some clarity about what to do next but I just feel more confused.
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Bungo

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Re: Review of blood tests (a rant)
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2024, 05:49:14 PM »

Why don't you try gel or different patch, maybe will absorb better? Then won't have to increase the utro. I had similar levels to you on the gel, upped to 4 pumps and still wasn't absorbing much.
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Peri2022

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Re: Review of blood tests (a rant)
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2024, 07:22:52 PM »

Thanks Bungo, unfortunately I tried the gel early in my HRT journey and absorbed it way too fast - had a bizarre reaction that felt a bit like a panic attack / adrenaline rush. I wish all of this was a bit less trial and error!
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Hurdity

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Re: Review of blood tests (a rant)
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2024, 08:45:41 AM »

Hi lovely ladies, I’ve recently seen my GP for a full HRT review and bloods after being on Estradot 50mcg and Utro 200mg (sequential) for about a year. Overall I feel good and most of my meno symptoms have eased apart from extreme fatigue on busy days.

I know hormonal blood tests are of limited use but my oestrogen is still low at 150 and my testosterone low at 0.5. My GP is happy to prescribe testosterone but I wonder if I should first try upping my oestrogen? Only problem is that she says I’ll need to balance it with more Utro if I go up to 75mcg Estradot or above, and I really really hate Utro!

Also, annoyingly my triglycerides (part of cholesterol) are high and my HbA1c is borderline high even though I already have a very healthy diet, don’t drink, I exercise and am a ‘normal’ BMI. GP wasn’t too worried and said ‘that’s just perimenopause’ but it does worry me a bit.

I just feel like I can’t get my health under control in spite of working so hard to do so. I used to be very healthy with no meds which I know is a privilege but now I feel at a total loss as to how to optimise my drugs and my lifestyle! It’s just quite overwhelming.

If anyone has had hormone levels similar to these, or been in a similar health situation, I’d love to hear from you. I feel a little better just ranting already.

I tried to vent to hubby but he just said, oh yeah we’re all getting old, all the same stuff is happening to me.

I don’t think so!  :(

If you're still peri-menopausal then blood tests are very inaccurate and just a snapshot of one particular day - levels will vary with your natural cycle. That being said - for a post-menopausal reading that is a bit on the low side but it also depended when in your patch cycle the patch was changed - once I had mine done and it was just before I changed my patch and the levels seemed pretty low - lower than that (I think around 90 something), so when they were redone it was half-way through patch change and they were way higher - around 200 - if I recall correctly. (I've since increased my dose).

So would be helpful to know where you are in menopause ie what your periods were doing in the 12 months leading up to your starting HRT?

In terms of increasing progesterone - although the licensed dose is based on trials using low and medium oestrogen doses, and the amount of progesterone is dose dependent (ie higher oestrogen doses generally require more prog to protect the womb), it does not automatically follow that you would need more progesterone if you increase the oestrogen dose, and the British Menopause Society only recommended increasing the progesterone if the dose being used is not controlling the bleeding or the lining is thickening.

Oestrogen levels could be one way to ascertain this though as above they are inaccurate as you know - and you could be guided perhaps by your bleed - whether there is anything that concerns you eg if it is especially heavy or if you are getting bleeding at the "wrong" time - though this can also happen if your own cycle overrides the HRT as will happen especially in early peri.

Testosterone - again levels are not an indication becausr they are so inccurate for women but if you have low or no libido then this is indicated, off licence - especially post-menopause, irrespective of measurements.

Yes good idea to make sure oestrogen is at a decent level before replacing T as you don't want to become T dominant but I would ask for a retest and make sure blood is taken, say, the day after you change the patch, if you can - but if you are peri you won't know where in the cycle you are. Once it has been redone then maybe you could go for an increase in oestrogen. You should also really be guided by how you feel on this dose? In my case I was prescribed 75 mcg from 50 mcg which I had been on for years, but I cut it down to about 62.5 mcg - because I'm old (in HRT terms) and also don't like taking prog!

Depends how old you are also?

I have high cholesterol and since I started having it measured almost 10 years ago it always has been. I'm not sure about Triglycerides but my total  is 7.42 last measurement and non HDL is 5.34 though the ratio of Total to HDL is within range. I also have a very healthy diet and resonable amount of exercise, (but could do more), normal BP, weight OK but just about on the limit ie could do with losing 7 pounds - but I have a medium frame so not "fat" as such!! My GP said some people genetically have higher cholesterol.

You can work out your QRisk score online using the latest tool (Qrisk3 I think) which will give your stroke risk - and this varies with age, weight, BP and CH readings. Because I'm now 70 it puts me at 10 which strictly speaking is the levels at which NHS recommdned intervention but so far I am just changing my diet a bit more ( cutting cheese right down, almost no butter, swapping out white rice and pasta for wholemeal etc and seeing what happens).

What are your actual readings?

HbA1C - what levels was yours? Mine was on the limit ie 41. It should be easy to reduce this by cutting out/down on sugars and refined carbs, I would have thought, if yours is in the pre-diabetic range?

Try not to worry!!!

Hope this helps :)

Hurdity x
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Mary G

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Re: Review of blood tests (a rant)
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2024, 12:01:57 PM »

Why on earth does she think you need more Utrogestan?  You have very low oestrogen levels as it is so more Utrogestan is the last thing you need.  Oestrogen levels do fluctuate but only up to a point.  You are highly unlikely to have a very low reading like 150 (pmol I presume?) and then go shooting up to 500 the next day.

I found the 50mg patch did not give me the levels of oestrogen that I needed so I switched to Oestrogel (one pump) and post menopause, I get a reliable 300ish pmol (90 pg/mL) every year now and that is roughly the level to aim for on a maintenance dose of HRT post menopause.

I would try the 75mg patch but I would definitely not increase the Utrogestan dose.  If you still get very low oestrogen readings with the patch I would try Oestrogel.



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Peri2022

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Re: Review of blood tests (a rant)
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2024, 12:54:00 PM »

Thanks ladies for your very thoughtful replies. To answer some questions, I’m still in peri and had the bloods done a few hours after putting on a fresh patch.

Yes it seems odd that I’d have to take more prog if upping my estrogen dose slightly, as my E levels appear quite low anyway. I did try 75mcg for a while but had very heavy flooding again so settles back to 50. I think I will try going up at 62.5 to see if this makes an improvement without causing heavy bleeding or needing an in increase in prog. Probably hold off on the T for now although my GP did kindly write me a script for it so I can pick it up anytime I change my mind.

My Hba1c is 38 which is not diabetic but still higher than I’d like, given my healthy diet and lifestyle. That being said, I can always cut back in carbs…


It’s all such a guessing game but I feel like my options are slowly becoming a bit clearer. Thank you again! I will keep you posted.
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CLKD

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Re: Review of blood tests (a rant)
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2024, 01:11:12 PM »

R U still ranting  ;D
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joziel

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Re: Review of blood tests (a rant)
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2024, 02:22:38 PM »

The thing about "bloods not being reliable during peri" ONLY APPLIES TO TOO HIGH results.

Your body can only contribute MORE estrogen, it can't take it away.

If you get a low result - you are not getting much from your HRT. Fact. It is best to test bloods during your period when your own estrogen is lowest, so you can see what you are getting from HRT.

150pmol is really low. It's not even the minimum recommended for bone protection, which is 250pmol.

You need to increase estrogen. If that creates utrogestan problems, then you have to address that - maybe by taking vaginally or maybe with a Mirena coil instead.

You might also want to get a full thyroid panel done privately - thyroid probs can cause high cholesterol because the liver doesn't clear it with a sluggish thyroid. Medichecks.com does an Advanced Thyroid Panel which is quite good...
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CLKD

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Re: Review of blood tests (a rant)
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2024, 02:53:56 PM »

 :thankyou:   joziel
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Peri2022

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Re: Review of blood tests (a rant)
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2024, 10:09:05 PM »

Thanks Joziel. Unfortunately I can’t tolerate oral utro (makes me depressed) so I am already taking it vaginally but it’s still annoying because it irritates my vagina after a few days of use. And I had a really awful failed coil insertion last year. I’m on the waiting list for a hysterectomy so ultimately that will solve my utro problem!

Thankfully GP also checked my thyroid bloods which were all normal.

Am going to up my oestrogen dose slowly and see how I go with that. Thank you all for your replies, they have helped illuminate things for me a little bit!
« Last Edit: March 20, 2024, 10:12:52 PM by Peri2022 »
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Hurdity

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Re: Review of blood tests (a rant)
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2024, 09:10:33 AM »

The thing about "bloods not being reliable during peri" ONLY APPLIES TO TOO HIGH results.

Your body can only contribute MORE estrogen, it can't take it away.

If you get a low result - you are not getting much from your HRT. Fact. It is best to test bloods during your period when your own estrogen is lowest, so you can see what you are getting from HRT.

150pmol is really low. It's not even the minimum recommended for bone protection, which is 250pmol.

You need to increase estrogen. If that creates utrogestan problems, then you have to address that - maybe by taking vaginally or maybe with a Mirena coil instead.

You might also want to get a full thyroid panel done privately - thyroid probs can cause high cholesterol because the liver doesn't clear it with a sluggish thyroid. Medichecks.com does an Advanced Thyroid Panel which is quite good...

Re this "150pmol is really low. It's not even the minimum recommended for bone protection, which is 250pmol. ". Please do you have a reference for this because Ive never been abe to find one? Admittedly recently I haven't looked but about 12 years ago I did find a paper which said something like 165 pmol/l for osteoporosis but I haven't been able to find the paper since! Of course all the recommended readings will need to be qualified ie if a result of a trial, then it will state X dose of oestrogen and Y amount of bone-turnover etc. This is important because of course even small amounts of oestrogen have some beneficial effect in reducing bone loss, but what we are aiming for I think is the minimum amount to prevent bone loss?

The thing about blood tests is that they are unreliable because they vary so much during peri and without knowing where you are in your cycle, it doesn't mean that your oestrogen level is consistently low. Even post-menopause 150 p mol/l is almost 40% higher than the upper end of the post-menopausal range. Yes it is on the low side but does depend on your age and stage too.

Thanks ladies for your very thoughtful replies. To answer some questions, I’m still in peri and had the bloods done a few hours after putting on a fresh patch.

Yes it seems odd that I’d have to take more prog if upping my estrogen dose slightly, as my E levels appear quite low anyway. I did try 75mcg for a while but had very heavy flooding again so settles back to 50. I think I will try going up at 62.5 to see if this makes an improvement without causing heavy bleeding or needing an in increase in prog. Probably hold off on the T for now although my GP did kindly write me a script for it so I can pick it up anytime I change my mind.

My Hba1c is 38 which is not diabetic but still higher than I’d like, given my healthy diet and lifestyle. That being said, I can always cut back in carbs…


It’s all such a guessing game but I feel like my options are slowly becoming a bit clearer. Thank you again! I will keep you posted.

Sounds like a plan - the 62.5. All the best with that.

Re the HBA1C - not sure why you're concerned about that? It seems way below even the pre-diabetic range! I'm sure you don't need to cut carbs if you're a healthy weight - but if you're eating a lot of sugar snacks or refined carbs, then cut down these and change to wholemeal etc.

Hurdity x
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chopsuey

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Re: Review of blood tests (a rant)
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2024, 12:04:21 PM »

I too have struggled to find information on minimum levels of oestradiol for bone protection.

I found one study published in the British Journal of General Practitice 1997 March Vol 47
''Adequacy of hormone replacement therapy for osteoporosis prevention assessed by serum oestradiol measurement, and the degree of association with menopausal symptoms.''

This suggested that levels above 150 pmol/l were needed. It is quite an old paper now though, so I don't know if this has been updated since.
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chopsuey

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Re: Review of blood tests (a rant)
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2024, 01:08:20 PM »

Peri2022

I had some similar issues to you when starting out on my menopausal/HRT journey

Patches didn't work for me, nor Lenzetto but eventually got my levels up to a reasonal amount and good symptom control on 4 pumps of Oestrogel (although having some issues with the new batches).

The Utro was the real problem though. It completely knocked me out orally and using it vaginally really aggravated my already sore and irritable bladder. My GP told me a Mirena coil was the only option, which I really didn't want, so I had to go privately. I was put on a lower dose of Utro, 100mg for 14 days after an intial 2 months of just Oestrogel to settle everything down. As it's below the guidelines, it does need monitoring with scans etc though. I am tolerating this, with the help of Ovestin internally. Have you tried any topical cream or pessaries to see if it helps?

My cholesterol is also high. It had been creeping up though perimenopause, despite healthy weight and lifestyle to 7.4. I have been having it checked yearly since being on HRT and it is now coming down without medication, last test 9 months  ago was 6.2, with healthy triglycerides. For me, the HRT seems to be helping this as nothing else has changed.

As for the fatigue, I really suffered with this and brain fog until I went on testosterone, which was a real game changer. I agree though that you probably need to get your oestradiol levels up first - this was what I was told by my gynae.

I don't know which gel you tried first but if you don't get any joy with the patches, maybe try Sandrena, which may be absorbed differently to what you experienced before, assuming that was Oestrogel (although this also seems to be being absorbed differently by many women now since summer last year).

I wish you luck in finding a solution that works for you
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