Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[dangermouse]

Happy New Year all!

So I am post meno (couple of years plus another 2 years where only one or two bleeds) and my progesterone levels are still too low for my (now low) oestrogen level - remember it's all about the ratio (unless you have osteoporosis when you may need more).

DIM helps occasionally to clear out the build up of oestrogen but it takes 2 days for my liver to process it (as I cannot tolerate CDG or other phase 2 liver supps as they give me digestive issues). In that 2 days I get blurred vision and feel lethargic but then feel great for a few days. I did used to take it every day (about a year ago) but I think it lowered my oestrogen too much as I started getting dry eyes and worsening constipation.

As my issue is low progesterone, what works for me best is in the form of a compounded progesterone cream, taking about 25mg twice a day.

When your oestrogen is still surging about then it can be tricky to control it with progesterone but, for me, it eventually started to retain a balance.

I do occasionally try an oestrogen patch to see if feel any better but it always over stimulates me and causes a tense feeling that doesn't go away. It also makes me intolerant of protein foods and alcohol, getting palpitations after just 2 glasses of wine! That will be because oestrogen is a stimulant. The progesterone cream makes my heart beat normally and I also have less allergic reactions.

Not sure if any of that helps but has been my experience after awful oestrogen dominance starting 8 years ago that caused severe nausea migraines.

[CrispyChick]

Hi Dangermouse.

Can I ask if you ever tried agnus castus?? As you know, I've been trying prog cream - but I've actually found it overstimulates my estrogen. So I've stopped for now.

But my E is surging, I have some bad symptoms (but not as bad, or the same as when adding in prog) so I'm going to try and get my body to balance itself with agnus castus.

Any experience? 

[dangermouse]

I did try that but as with most herbs I got a migraine - I get it with most that dilate blood vessels so I avoid herbs now.

Did you end up having the oestrogen test (can't remember the name) where you take lots of samples in a short space of time?

Progesterone sometimes, like DIM, throws out too much oestrogen for me too (and was too hard to deal with in peri). There's also all the oestrogen that sits in our tissues that increases in menopause but my surging is now less frequent so it is easier to deal with.

[CrispyChick]

Thanks Dangermouse. Interesting about migraines - that's what happened to me when I took AC 5 years ago. But I was on mega dose!!!

I've had so many tests this year - including the Dutch, if that's the one you mean.

Basically, low dose Prog made me feel ill - felt like my E was being stimulated. Indeed in Sept my E had increased to 2089!!!  That was the prog that did it. Higher doses gave me side affects. I then tried a herbal blend to reduce my E... That tanked it to 1.7. I actually felt better, but the herbs killed my stomach and I had to stop. I was also trying utrogestan at that time and it just comatosed me.

Now I've stopped everything and my E is back up in the 300s.

After the year I've had of progesterone trials, I totally believe it threw out my tissue E. In fact, I've recently read that prolactin is a better measure of estrogen dominance. I have high prolactin - also the reason for me retrying AC

So. You can now tolerate prog no problem since meno???  Hoping my day will come.

Do you get much support with thix Dangermouse??? The whole of the UK seem to believe estrogen is the only answer!!!

X

[Mary G]

Thanks dangermouse and Crispychick, that's very interesting and highlights once again the lack of information out there for women with oestrogen dominance. 

I agree it's all about ratio and stability and if your hormones are seriously out of kilter, a whole host of problems arise - in my case it was silent migraines.

[Scampidoodle]

Happy New Year all!

So I am post meno (couple of years plus another 2 years where only one or two bleeds) and my progesterone levels are still too low for my (now low) oestrogen level - remember it's all about the ratio (unless you have osteoporosis when you may need more).

DIM helps occasionally to clear out the build up of oestrogen but it takes 2 days for my liver to process it (as I cannot tolerate CDG or other phase 2 liver supps as they give me digestive issues). In that 2 days I get blurred vision and feel lethargic but then feel great for a few days. I did used to take it every day (about a year ago) but I think it lowered my oestrogen too much as I started getting dry eyes and worsening constipation.

As my issue is low progesterone, what works for me best is in the form of a compounded progesterone cream, taking about 25mg twice a day.

When your oestrogen is still surging about then it can be tricky to control it with progesterone but, for me, it eventually started to retain a balance.

I do occasionally try an oestrogen patch to see if feel any better but it always over stimulates me and causes a tense feeling that doesn't go away. It also makes me intolerant of protein foods and alcohol, getting palpitations after just 2 glasses of wine! That will be because oestrogen is a stimulant. The progesterone cream makes my heart beat normally and I also have less allergic reactions.

Not sure if any of that helps but has been my experience after awful oestrogen dominance starting 8 years ago that caused severe nausea migraines.

Thanks for posting Dangermouse and happy new year to you! It is totally all about ratio and I think mine are very off!

I am on day 2 of Dim. I really didn’t know which to use but my Dim arrived before my progesterone cream! So I went for it. Have had a headache which I read is expected at first. I’ve had genetic tests done to map my oestrogen pathways and discovered I make too much oestrogen to begin with (my progesterone and testosterone both convert into more oestrogen) and then my oestrogen goes down the two other unfavourable pathways more than the one you want it to go down (it’s v complicated!) So Dim apparently would help to rectify both of those things.

But I also have issues with phase 2 dangermouse, which im trying to support with B vits (especially folate) zinc and magnesium. But that’s what I was concerned about that I might get a back up of oestrogen.

So when you said it would take two days to detox and then you felt good again, would that cycle then  repeat itself again and again when you took Dim daily?

I’ve had the severe nausea migraines too and think my issues began approx 8 years ago too! I can get palpitations and my histamine issues are worse when oestrogen is present and out of balance. These can range from nausea, migraines to anxiety, jittery feelings, brain fog. Progesterone calms histamine which makes sense with you getting less allergic reactions.

You read that so many women swear by progesterone cream but so many are quick to discredit it completely. X

[Scampidoodle]

I did try that but as with most herbs I got a migraine - I get it with most that dilate blood vessels so I avoid herbs now.

Did you end up having the oestrogen test (can't remember the name) where you take lots of samples in a short space of time?

Progesterone sometimes, like DIM, throws out too much oestrogen for me too (and was too hard to deal with in peri). There's also all the oestrogen that sits in our tissues that increases in menopause but my surging is now less frequent so it is easier to deal with.

What did you do in peri, dangermouse when things were more unpredictable?

[Hurdity]

Hi there

Just had a quick look at this thread

Sorry to hear about your symptoms scampidoodle. I don't know anything about histamine...however you say you're not peri-menopausal yet. May I ask how you know where you are in menopause as you have the Mirena coil and this stops periods before they would stop naturally?

As I read earlier in the thread - if you are peri-menopausal and your hormones are surging and fluctuating wildly, the combined pill can be used to regulate this - your cycle - and is prescribed by some gynaecologists at this stage. You would then not need the Mirena coil. There are some combi contraceptive pills which are similar to HRT.

Re ratio of oestrogen to progesterone. As far as I know, there is no absolute ratio that needs to be aimed for in order for women to feel OK.  They don't "balance" each other in this way.  The only place that the right balance is necessary is for endometrial protection  - because oestrogen stimulates this to grow, and progesterone changes the structure ready for pregnancy, and then if no pregnancy, then it is shed - but there needs to be sufficient progesterone for this.

One of the characteristics of progesterone is that it is a sedative, and has various biological effects etc. Some women like this effect and therefore progesterone can be used like a drug for this purpose alone - but not because of any way that it "balances" the oestrogen. (unless recent research has shown this to be the case - I'm going by what I've absorbed through reading over the years).

"You read that so many women swear by progesterone cream but so many are quick to discredit it completely. X"

It's not a question of discrediting it for the sake of it, but that as far as I know the evidence from trials has not indicated progesterone cream to be an effective treatment for menopausal symptoms, and that for the majority of women oestrogen based HRT is the most effective. If you are not yet at peri-menopause then this doesn't really apply.

Having said that the very weak progesterone cream that you obtain off the shelf will not do you any harm as very little will be absorbed , and in any case I'm not sure whether it will have any effect at all given you have the Mirena coil and if I recall correctly (though again haven't looked this up recently!), the synthetic progestogens may have a greater affinity for progesterone receptors than natural bioidentical progesterone.

From what you say about your symptoms it may well be, rather than focussing too much on exactly what might be happening (which is probably impossible to tell,) and trying a cocktail of various products that may not have an evidence base to support their use,  you might be better off with a combi pill, if you feel the high oestrogen is affecting histamine issues?

Measuring oestrogen levels is probably counterproductive because they vary so much....

Anyway, just a few thoughts, and wishing you well in sorting out how to feel better!

Hurdity x

[Scampidoodle]

Thanks for all the info. Unfortunately the combined pill causes me lots of issues too, it’s just a huge dose of hormones which flared all my symptoms. I was on it for years in my 20’s with no issue but trying to go back on it or start the PoP is a no go for me. I wish it was an option. It seems with my body very small doses of things have a big effect so I don’t need much.

I say I’m not peri but I guess I mean I don’t think I’m massively into it as in near menopause but I’m 43 and given my issues I am probably in it somewhere. I still have a period on the Mirena, it’s never stopped it for me so I still have a cycle.

Histamine and hormones are intrinsically linked and a lot of women who can’t tolerate oestrogen or it causes more symptoms may find they’re histamine intolerant. Not all, but some. If that’s the case, progesterone can help.

I think there is some balancing act between the two hormones or dampening down of oestrogen via some mechanism which benefits some people.

[CrispyChick]

This is such a shame. We are being let down by the lack of 'evidence' here in the UK.

Scampi - you know your issues are caused by high/surging estrogen. I know mine are, Dangermouse knows hers are.

It's so sad there is no support for us. Balance is very much key here. We need prog to balance our surging estrogen in peri... And beyond, as Dangermouse is finding out. It's heavily documented that progesterone goes south well before estrogen - so I don't get the thinking in the UK.

I also don't get why they'd want to throw more estrogen at us... Which is what they do here. Surely that's downright dangerous?!

I had a medichecks capillary blood test done a few weeks ago. They asked what I wanted to find out, I said I was checking my state of estrogen dominance - I then got a lecture from medichecks (whom I was paying) that estrogen dominance doesn't exist, according to the nice guidelines. Right. It just exists outside of the UK then. 

I'm not new to this... I've been battling this for 5 years. I have estrogen dominance, beyond doubt!

Scampi, you know my experience with prog cream - good brands are not 'very weak'. I experienced real changes, as does Dangermouse. Mary uses bespoke progesterone and keeps her uterine lining thin. These are real hormones. With power. Hurdity does have a point about the receptors and the progesterone /progestin competing. But give it a go?! We all respond differently.

I tried every combined pill under the sun over the course of a year... And, whilst some brought some symptom relief, they all brought new symptoms. There are a few threads about combined pills for peri on MM. That's it. That's all the NHS meno clinic could offer me. Very sad and disappointing.

At least we can talk about it and share experiences here. Xx

[dangermouse]

Thanks Dangermouse. Interesting about migraines - that's what happened to me when I took AC 5 years ago. But I was on mega dose!!!

I've had so many tests this year - including the Dutch, if that's the one you mean.

So. You can now tolerate prog no problem since meno???  Hoping my day will come.

Do you get much support with thix Dangermouse??? The whole of the UK seem to believe estrogen is the only answer!!!

X

Yes that's it, the DUTCH one. I've not had myself.

Progesterone cream is now easier to tolerate as less volatility but even post meno I have 2 points in cycle that repeat approximately every 28 days when feel a surge!

I didn't get support really as when I was at my worst menopause wasn't discussed anywhere and my GP assumed I had a stomach ulcer and made me take lots of PPIs for 6 months which wrecked my stomach (not been the same since)! I then had great support from a private endocrinologist who diagnosed gastric migraines and said I need progesterone to to dampen the oestrogen surges. She was honest about how difficult it would be and to stop and start again if got too much. It helped but even the combined pill couldn't stop my surges but fortunately it did all calm down the last few years - albeit it very gradually!

[dangermouse]

Happy New Year all!

So I am post meno (couple of years plus another 2 years where only one or two bleeds) and my progesterone levels are still too low for my (now low) oestrogen level - remember it's all about the ratio (unless you have osteoporosis when you may need more).

DIM helps occasionally to clear out the build up of oestrogen but it takes 2 days for my liver to process it (as I cannot tolerate CDG or other phase 2 liver supps as they give me digestive issues). In that 2 days I get blurred vision and feel lethargic but then feel great for a few days. I did used to take it every day (about a year ago) but I think it lowered my oestrogen too much as I started getting dry eyes and worsening constipation.

As my issue is low progesterone, what works for me best is in the form of a compounded progesterone cream, taking about 25mg twice a day.

When your oestrogen is still surging about then it can be tricky to control it with progesterone but, for me, it eventually started to retain a balance.

I do occasionally try an oestrogen patch to see if feel any better but it always over stimulates me and causes a tense feeling that doesn't go away. It also makes me intolerant of protein foods and alcohol, getting palpitations after just 2 glasses of wine! That will be because oestrogen is a stimulant. The progesterone cream makes my heart beat normally and I also have less allergic reactions.

Not sure if any of that helps but has been my experience after awful oestrogen dominance starting 8 years ago that caused severe nausea migraines.

Thanks for posting Dangermouse and happy new year to you! It is totally all about ratio and I think mine are very off!

I am on day 2 of Dim. I really didn’t know which to use but my Dim arrived before my progesterone cream! So I went for it. Have had a headache which I read is expected at first. I’ve had genetic tests done to map my oestrogen pathways and discovered I make too much oestrogen to begin with (my progesterone and testosterone both convert into more oestrogen) and then my oestrogen goes down the two other unfavourable pathways more than the one you want it to go down (it’s v complicated!) So Dim apparently would help to rectify both of those things.

But I also have issues with phase 2 dangermouse, which im trying to support with B vits (especially folate) zinc and magnesium. But that’s what I was concerned about that I might get a back up of oestrogen.

So when you said it would take two days to detox and then you felt good again, would that cycle then  repeat itself again and again when you took Dim daily?

I’ve had the severe nausea migraines too and think my issues began approx 8 years ago too! I can get palpitations and my histamine issues are worse when oestrogen is present and out of balance. These can range from nausea, migraines to anxiety, jittery feelings, brain fog. Progesterone calms histamine which makes sense with you getting less allergic reactions.

You read that so many women swear by progesterone cream but so many are quick to discredit it completely. X

So when I first started DIM I took every day and the headache etc cleared after a few days. After a few months I started getting the dry eyes and constipation so stopped. More recently I had one DIM (Nutri) a week and that seemed to keep me balanced. However, the blurry vision (which will be from the liver dump) really affects me being able to work properly so have taken a break and returned to the progesterone as low dose.

[dangermouse]

I did try that but as with most herbs I got a migraine - I get it with most that dilate blood vessels so I avoid herbs now.

Did you end up having the oestrogen test (can't remember the name) where you take lots of samples in a short space of time?

Progesterone sometimes, like DIM, throws out too much oestrogen for me too (and was too hard to deal with in peri). There's also all the oestrogen that sits in our tissues that increases in menopause but my surging is now less frequent so it is easier to deal with.

What did you do in peri, dangermouse when things were more unpredictable?

I had quite a rough time and lost 2 stone in 2 months as I felt travel sick even watching movement on the TV and so couldn't face food at all. The Brevinor combined pill (that had taken when younger) stopped all the nausea after a week but then it all started breaking through gradually over the year. Similar with the prog cream so I eventually stopped everything and waited it out, using those travel wrist bands to drive to work and get through the day. Then I'd have the odd day when I felt better and then they increased. I vaguely remember trying DIM back then and it causing me to immediately throw up so I avoided it but now realise it may have helped if I had persevered. Who knows?!

[dangermouse]

With regards to unopposed oestrogen, I do believe that progesterone (and testosterone if low) are needed for proper sex hormone balance, beyond womb protection, which is just one organ after all.

A friend is taking Sandrena alone as has no womb and she has become very fearful of everything and a little withdrawn.

Whether any decent research will ever be done on natural progesterone is questionable as oestrogen is big business but I think some doctors are starting to question the high dose oestrogen that Newson seems to push.

[Scampidoodle]

I did try that but as with most herbs I got a migraine - I get it with most that dilate blood vessels so I avoid herbs now.

Did you end up having the oestrogen test (can't remember the name) where you take lots of samples in a short space of time?

Progesterone sometimes, like DIM, throws out too much oestrogen for me too (and was too hard to deal with in peri). There's also all the oestrogen that sits in our tissues that increases in menopause but my surging is now less frequent so it is easier to deal with.

What did you do in peri, dangermouse when things were more unpredictable?

I had quite a rough time and lost 2 stone in 2 months as I felt travel sick even watching movement on the TV and so couldn't face food at all. The Brevinor combined pill (that had taken when younger) stopped all the nausea after a week but then it all started breaking through gradually over the year. Similar with the prog cream so I eventually stopped everything and waited it out, using those travel wrist bands to drive to work and get through the day. Then I'd have the odd day when I felt better and then they increased. I vaguely remember trying DIM back then and it causing me to immediately throw up so I avoided it but now realise it may have helped if I had persevered. Who knows?!

They sound like difficult side effects from the dim and during perimeno, dangermouse. I’m so glad you’ve come through it.

I’m three days into dim. Just the headache so far, maybe a bit of nausea but I often feel nauseous these last few months so who knows. I’ll see how it goes.

When I get the progesterone cream, which should be any day from tomorrow, do people know what may happen if I use it every day of my cycle? I know we only have progesterone after ovulation normally but I struggle with the unopposed oestrogen in the first part of my cycle too, so feel I’d benefit from it but not sure if it would mess things up? I guess I have the Mirena giving me synthetic progesterone, albeit a tiny amount, every day of my cycle x