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Menopause Matters magazine ISSUE 62 out now. (Winter issue, Dec 2020)

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Author Topic: Is this the right place to discuss compounded hormones?  (Read 4640 times)

CLKD

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Re: Is this the right place to discuss compounded hormones?
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2020, 12:57:10 PM »

 :thankyou: dangermouse
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Cassie

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Re: Is this the right place to discuss compounded hormones?
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2020, 01:06:18 PM »

I can really relate to this and am cheating really badly with my Utrogestan, using 100mg prob every 10 weeks or so, due a scan soon so am hoping it will look ok, I only take 1 pump of gel but that box of tablets sits on my bedside dresser and I make a different excuse every night not to start them. Started my 12 day course last night and already feeling jittery so would love an alternate option. ::)
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Mary G

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Re: Is this the right place to discuss compounded hormones?
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2020, 01:07:11 PM »

Another great post dangermouse.   

I remember Professor Studd saying that 200mg Utrogestan for 12 days a month was bollocks!  Joking aside, he makes a good point and most women don't need anything that amount of Utrogestan.   
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Perinowpost

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Re: Is this the right place to discuss compounded hormones?
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2020, 03:01:44 PM »

I'm currently trialling 50mg natural progesterone (not synthetic) in capsule form. I take it at bedtime and have a lovely nights sleep and wake up in a good mood.  it's nothing short of a miracle to me that I'm managing a continuous regime, as previously I couldn't get beyond 7 days on utrogestan. I also don't have any of the other negative effects of prog like bloating or quashed libido, but it's the stable mood I'm happiest with.

I see a practising nhs GP who has a special interest in menopause, she practices privately 1 day a week. She has said it may not work (although she's had lots of good results) and I won't know until I have a scan, but that's fine by me I was doing that anyway, I take full responsibility for my health x
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Tc

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Re: Is this the right place to discuss compounded hormones?
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2020, 03:11:20 PM »

Great perin  :)
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Perinowpost

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Re: Is this the right place to discuss compounded hormones?
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2020, 03:43:17 PM »

No Stellajane it's different (larger), I do know it's slow release x
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GypsyRoseLee

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Re: Is this the right place to discuss compounded hormones?
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2020, 03:58:59 PM »

Progesterone intolerance is a weird beast. As you all know I am incredibly allergic to progesterone, even my own. And yet when I take 100mg of Utrogestan orally for 7 days a month I don't even notice it!

Funny that Prof Studd told you that 200mg of Utro x 12 days was 'bollocks'. He said exactly the same to me except he used the phrase 'absolute crap'. He is definitely a colourful character!

On a serious note, it's tragic that the NHS blanket prescribe far too high doses of progesterone for too long because they don't have the resources to properly monitor with scans etc. Especially when, I bet, so many women constantly rock up at their GP surgery because of all the nasty side effects that too much progesterone brings. That must tie-up so many NHS resources.

But it's just like DM says, it's the difference between buying an off-the-peg dress from M&S - and buying haute couture from Chanel...
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Hurdity

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Re: Is this the right place to discuss compounded hormones?
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2020, 04:11:45 PM »

It is a shame that the British Menopause Society have taken such an extreme stance against compounded products, they also mention saliva testing which is nothing to do with UK BHRT clinics so I'm not sure where theyre getting their info from? Maybe the US.

NICE do not hold such strong views against BHRT, they just say that practitioners should make it clear to patients that BHRT is not regulated, they do not state that it should not be prescribed.

The BMS is not a government organisation, simply a society that menopause practitioners (not just docs) can choose to pay to join for advertising their services, industry updates and access to seminars etc. They are supported by the practitioner fees and seminars but they also receive occasional funding from the regulated HRT manufacturers (like Besins) so there could be financial conflict of interests at play.

Im sure that Prof Studd would like to be able to offer the 50mg progesterone but then he couldn't be promoted by the BMS as, although you can be a member for the other benefits, you can't be on the practitioners list if you prescribe BHRT.

Im not saying that the BMS should promote online products (although they do promote Sylk and YES) but they could be open to products made in specialist compounded pharmacies via GMC registered UK doctors, for example.

Fortunately, on an open forum we can learn from each other and not be restricted by corporate vested interests.

Gosh you're going for the BMS now?

Extreme stance?! I am sure the BMS would find that laughable that they are considered by some as an extremist organisation! I must say at this point that these "extreme" views are also shared (In addition to MM and NHS) internationally by the American FDA, North American Menopause Society (NAMS), the Australasian Menopause Society and probably the International Menopause Society and the European one too so it's pretty universal. In my first post in this thread I linked to the thread started by Forum Admin Emma in 2017 in response to controversies back then. If you look at this thread and in particular the long post by Dana you will see the statements of some of these organisations: https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,37209.0.html

Not sure where you got all that information about them dangermouse but it is important to put the record straight re BMS especially as your post has been highly praised.

Here is what BMS stands for (from their website):
https://thebms.org.uk/

"The British Menopause Society (BMS), established in 1989, educates, informs and guides healthcare professionals in all aspects of post reproductive health.

This is achieved through an annual programme of lectures, conferences, meetings, exhibitions and our interactive website. We offer a range of publications including our quarterly journal Post Reproductive Health and the definitive handbook Management of the Menopause.
"

"...simply a society that menopause practitioners (not just docs) can choose to pay to join for advertising their services, industry updates and access to seminars etc. They are supported by the practitioner fees and seminars but they also receive occasional funding from the regulated HRT manufacturers (like Besins) so there could be financial conflict of interests at play."

Please read a bit more about what they do! They are the main menopause organisation in UK. You can see what they do - I don't think any of it is "simply" anything. For those who aren't aware they are the professional academic society concerned with post-reproductive health and as such publish a quarterly peer-reviewed scientific journal of the same name (formerly Maturitas). Not just a little club for interested people to join. There exist such learned academic societies across the scientific world most of which publish the journals of research into whatever their discipline is. To refer to them in such dismissive terms is to do them a great disservice.

As for the funding - although it sounds like some members will obtain some funding through pharma etc for research, they do have a policy on declaration of interests which you can read here: https://thebms.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/BMS-Declaration-of-Interests-01.pdf . They are also a charity so are governed by the rules of charities.

Where on earth did you get the idea that practitioners join to advertise their services? Yes this is one place you can find an recognised Menopause Specialist but far from being a negative service this is one way you can be assured that you're not visiting some sort of self-made quack! https://thebms.org.uk/menopause-specialists/overview/.

The find a specialist page on this very website - menopause matters links with the BMS find a specialist page. I am a bit puzzled dangermouse because if you don't agree with any of that - why are you here? I don't mean that impolitely in any way whatsoever, I am genuinely curious because all of the above forms the basis of current recognised menopause management, education and advice.

I've got a lot more to say on other posts but this one I will keep to the one topic  ::)

Hurdity x
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GypsyRoseLee

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Re: Is this the right place to discuss compounded hormones?
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2020, 04:54:16 PM »

Prof John Studd was the Chairman of the British Menopause Society for many years - and yet he is still considered an extremist maverick by much of the NHS.

I honestly don't think DM is 'going for anyone' here, that's a rather dramatic description. She is correct in saying that practitioners do have to pay an annual membership fee in order to access all of the BMS's resources etc. She isn't saying the BMS is a bunch of charlatans either because clearly they absolutely are not.
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CLKD

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Re: Is this the right place to discuss compounded hormones?
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2020, 05:15:38 PM »

Why the Lecture  :-\ ........ we are adults.  Quiet capable of reading what we need to read ....... and sharing experiences  :-\.  A simple 'do refer to the Link' should be enough to encourage Members to read/not - if they are really interested.

I do wonder why the BMS doesn't send every Surgery details which can be passed on to all the women in each Surgery?  Educating both practitioners and patients at the same time?  I would like to see the BMS state on their web-site exactly who they are targeting in order to get their message across ............ are they prominent in the daily press for example?
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GypsyRoseLee

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Re: Is this the right place to discuss compounded hormones?
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2020, 05:58:06 PM »

I agree StellaJane. No one is forcing anyone to have treatment - we're just laying ALL the cards on the table and leaving it up to personal choice. This forum is one of the few places where all the cards can be laid out on the table, thank goodness.

Plenty of women use Utro vaginally despite it not being licensed for that in the UK. Plenty of women go long cycle which isn't how HRT is officially licensed to be used. Plenty of women use testosterone despite there no longer being a feminine dose available, so have to 'wing it' using the very scientific dose of a 'pea sized blob'  ::)

I'm all for information being presented clearly in black & white. But there is also room for carefully researched, carefully monitored grey information, too.
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Hurdity

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Re: Is this the right place to discuss compounded hormones?
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2020, 06:08:31 PM »

Why the Lecture  :-\ ........ we are adults.  Quiet capable of reading what we need to read ....... and sharing experiences  :-\.  A simple 'do refer to the Link' should be enough to encourage Members to read/not - if they are really interested.

I do wonder why the BMS doesn't send every Surgery details which can be passed on to all the women in each Surgery?  Educating both practitioners and patients at the same time?  I would like to see the BMS state on their web-site exactly who they are targeting in order to get their message across ............ are they prominent in the daily press for example?

CLKD - you were telling me yesterday to write everything out in full so that you didn't have to look anything up!!! There was a lot of misunderstanding about the role of BMS so I wanted to clarify it because I use their resources a lot and we couldn't do without them!

Hurdity x
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Hurdity

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Re: Is this the right place to discuss compounded hormones?
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2020, 06:19:55 PM »

No-one is forcing anyone to do anything, but anything that is said may be challenged! It's interesting!

Prof Studd was Chair of BMS for two years the max term for all Chairs. He was pioneering in his treatment for depression using high doses of oestrogen and did masses of research into the effects of different doses and regimes of progesterone on the endometrium, and also amongst others made widespread in the UK the use of estradiol and progesterone for menopause in UK from what I gather (already widespread in France and continental Europe).  I think the treatment of depression with oestrogen was the controversial treatment? More recently he has been prescribing the 7 day prog regime but I think actually (unless he has retired) more recently increased that to 10 days per month in view of the incidence of endometrial hyperplasia (this is anecdotal from reports on here!!).

GypsyRoseLee - the thing about vag prog is that there is a lot fo research into it and it is licesned elsewehre in Europe as well as licensed for fertility in UK, testosterone alos has been studies in women and the prescrption of it for women is using a regulated product (albeit developed for men) but at leats you know how much T is in it! Long cycles have also been studied. This is the whole point there are so many ways of individualising the HRT regime using existing products - we just need docs to be more (specialised?) educated and prepared to prescribe them!!

Hurdity x
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Mary G

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Re: Is this the right place to discuss compounded hormones?
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2020, 06:28:28 PM »

As stated in my original post, I just wanted to put this option out there for the minority of women who may be interested.   Some will be interested, some won't, it's as simple as that.

Out of interest, what is the BMS solution for (the minority of) women like me who can't take any form of synthetic progesterone including the Mirena coil and can never take Utrogestan ever again?  A hysterectomy paid for by the NHS perhaps?

Perinowpost, thanks for your post, I'm so pleased your new regime is going well for you.   Long may it continue!

Stellajane, yes, that is about the size of it.
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CLKD

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Re: Is this the right place to discuss compounded hormones?
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2020, 06:30:34 PM »

I didn't ask for a Lecture though!

Well said stellajane   :tulips2:

What happens if a GP won't listen even after advice has been sought, privately or otherwise?
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