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[CrispyChick]

Hi folks.

Me again!!! Still struggling. Massively.

So, I took my 25mg prog cream days 12 to 21 last month. Stopped. Had a period after about 5 days. Didn't really feel the cream had done anything.

So started day 1 with a dose of 25mg and 12.5mg. Then on day 3 took 50mg split into 2 doses. Then on day 5 (yesterday) I was absolutely horrific. At my worst with motion sickness. It's absolutely awful. I took an extra 25mg last night.

So, today, still bad. I plan to get straight up to my 100mg, which my doc said I should get to next month.

No idea what is going on. Is this just my normal and the cream has no affect... Yet. Is it increasing my estrogen to start with?

I joined that fb page, and they talk non stop about 'estrogen kickback' and upping your dose to compensate.

Urgh. I just want to get some respite.

Dangermouse - I know you said you absorbed well at 50mg. So that gives me hope. You also said you felt awful the first month... Can you remember if it just calmed or if you upped your dose??? What dose did you eventually go up to?

My plan is to get to 100mg today... Then keep going 😬.

[Logie]

Hi Mary G

Thank you so much for your reply and advice, I really appreciate it x

[dangermouse]

So I used to struggle with dose changes when my own oestrogen was very high and found stability was key. Now it's lower I went up to 100mg with no issue (50mg didn't feel enough).

As a guess, it could be the dormant oestrogen receptors opening back up again causing your symptoms, as there is now sufficient progesterone to return to normal oestrogen supplies (as in even more!). Or the oestrogen could be simply surging more and pushing the progesterone down so that you keep getting progesterone withdrawal waves.

When volatility is high it's very hard to control but I have also seen on those groups that some women go up to 400mg a day and that finally blankets the oestrogen flames!

I would now try adding in the DIM as it assists moving the oestrogen out of your digestive system so it doesn't keep recirculating. I know this used to happen to me as with my worse nausea migraines, after so many days of constant nausea (minus a few hours when I could sleep) I would then have a bowel movement and it was like a switch being turned off and all the surging would just stop, as if I had just got off the boat!

[CrispyChick]

Thank you so much for replying dangermouse - it means a lot.

Are you on 100mg prog now?

So I got to 100mg yesterday. I took 2 x 25mg and 1 x 50mg...I went very woozy for 2 hours after the 50. So I'm on 4 x 25mg today and from now on. I'm not going to move from the 100mg (unless things become unbearable) I'm feeling pretty bad. But then I was feeling just as bad before I started the prog.  but only in first half of cycle - which I'm in just now.

DIM. I'm a bit scared. It is sitting on the shelf. Read lots of stories of detox symptoms etc. Plus, I don't think I actually want to lower my estrogen... In saying that my MG doc said OK to take it. She did say I didn't need to lower though, but that it's good for metabolising to prevent bad estrogens. Can't say I've noticed symptoms abating with my bowels, but then I've never thought to look out for that.

Are you still finding it working well??? And your estrogen is so low, so that's interesting. What dose are you on?

I've looked at milk thistle - undecided on that too. Some say good, some say it mimics estrogen. 🙃. It's all so confusing!

Calcium d glucarate alongside DIM. I might go for that. 

[CrispyChick]

Further update. I feel very sedated today. Felt dreadful until I took my morning 25mg...which has helped, so must mean I'm absorbing. But I'm very sedated.

Given myself a talking to. I've been led to believe more is important on a fb page... I've just left the page - it's not good for me.

Also not helped by the fact creams are vilified here, so I feel I can take any dose whatsoever and I'm unlikely to absorb it!!!

So ill refocus on what my MG expert is telling me. Think I'll get back down to 50mg for this month - as I was told to do.  it's desperation. It kicks in.

So I need to reach a consistent dose. A d see where it takes me. Clearly I'm not going to improve overnight.

I probably will add on calcium d glucarate first. Then dim later if need be.

Mary - you take 50mg? Correct? And your bloods show you absorb fine??? Think I just need it confirming.

Feeling stupid. But I'm so fed up of feeling ill. 😕

[dangermouse]

Hey, no I stopped the progesterone 2 months ago as I was getting really bloated (it is a diuretic) and constipated even more than usual (now that my oestrogen is much lower). I then tried to add some Lenzetto oestrogen for balance but that made me really sick so I stopped to let the progesterone levels come down and then I started DIM, so have not yet needed to return to the progesterone.

What I have learnt is that DIM helps metabolise the oestrogen in the Phase 1 of liver function. Then if you do too much of that, Phase 2 gets blocked so things like Cal-DG and milk thistle support this phase and produce lots of bile to help the process along the intestines. I found DIM gave me an occasional quote strong headache for 3 days but felt good otherwise and the headache didn't return. Cal-DG made me quite lethargic and had intense salt cravings (milk thistle also gives me that!), so perhaps connected to the extra bile production. I'm finding powdered Vit C less intense but helping to move those pathways along more gradually.

I also read that DIM does not lower oestrogen, just stops it recirculating (which causes the nausea etc) and it also stops testosterone from converting to oestrogen, thus boosting your testosterone. Whereas, Cal-DG lowers both oestrogen and testosterone, presumably it drags it out through the bile. Occasional use makes me feel better the next day though.

I skipped DIM one night this week (to see if it builds up) but I woke at 4am feeling my old physical anxiety, not strong but enough to wake me up. I then took the DIM and it made me fall asleep and woke up without the anxiety again!

Hope some of that helps!

[CrispyChick]

Thanks Dangermouse.

I just feel such a mess. That me back to 50mg of cream, split between 2 doses. I'll stay there for the month.

I've read a lot and it does seem the most recommended dose (well, 40mg) on any decent over the counter brands. I'm prettyrcsure it's what Mary takes successfully too.

I took a CG last night. Decided I'll take a few of those first - see if I can excrete anything extra before considering the dim

Thanks for your replies - I really appreciate them at my times of desperation. So, you're on nothing but dim now and in late stage of peri??? That be excellent if that's all you need. 

[Hurdity]

What I have learnt is that DIM helps metabolise the oestrogen in the Phase 1 of liver function. Then if you do too much of that, Phase 2 gets blocked so things like Cal-DG and milk thistle support this phase and produce lots of bile to help the process along the intestines. I found DIM gave me an occasional quote strong headache for 3 days but felt good otherwise and the headache didn't return. Cal-DG made me quite lethargic and had intense salt cravings (milk thistle also gives me that!), so perhaps connected to the extra bile production. I'm finding powdered Vit C less intense but helping to move those pathways along more gradually.

I also read that DIM does not lower oestrogen, just stops it recirculating (which causes the nausea etc) and it also stops testosterone from converting to oestrogen, thus boosting your testosterone. Whereas, Cal-DG lowers both oestrogen and testosterone, presumably it drags it out through the bile. Occasional use makes me feel better the next day though.

Hi dangermouse - do you have any academic references to studies where any of this is shown? Especially with regard to steroid hormone metabolism and the interplay between oestrogen and testosterone? I would be grateful for any links - maybe a separate thread?

Hurdity x

[Hurdity]

Further update. I feel very sedated today. Felt dreadful until I took my morning 25mg...which has helped, so must mean I'm absorbing. But I'm very sedated.

Given myself a talking to. I've been led to believe more is important on a fb page... I've just left the page - it's not good for me.

Also not helped by the fact creams are vilified here, so I feel I can take any dose whatsoever and I'm unlikely to absorb it!!!

So ill refocus on what my MG expert is telling me. Think I'll get back down to 50mg for this month - as I was told to do.  it's desperation. It kicks in.

So I need to reach a consistent dose. A d see where it takes me. Clearly I'm not going to improve overnight.

I probably will add on calcium d glucarate first. Then dim later if need be.

Mary - you take 50mg? Correct? And your bloods show you absorb fine??? Think I just need it confirming.

Feeling stupid. But I'm so fed up of feeling ill. 😕

Hi Crispychick Sorry to hear you are still feeling rough.

Just to take up the point about "the fact creams are vilified here," - they're no exactly vilified as such - but just they are not recommended to be used for endometrial protection because there is no standard regulated product so dosage could be inconsistent, and with womb protection it is important to know you are getting the correct dose - hance the BMS not endorsing clinics where there are prescribed.

The other reason is that for years progesterone cream was touted by the companies that produce it as the answer to all menopause problems, and as far as I understand it was originally developed as a commercial enterprise, and led to the oestrogen dominance idea - in terms of symptoms as opposed to bleeding. As far as I know there haven't been studies that show that progesterone cream alone would be sufficient to alleviate menopausal symptoms, nor that there is an ideal ratio to aim for, and of course it does not replace oestrogen in women that need it.

I hope you feel better soon and manage to sort out a regime that works for you.

Hurdity x

[CrispyChick]

Thanks Hurdity

Yes, I totally get all that about the creams when using estrogen.

As you've seen, I'm not at that stage and instead looking for answers for my specific case. My blood tests show my estrogen to be good and my progesterone very low. Common in peri I believe, but perhaps more common to show up as heavy bleeds.

Instead I suffer from dizziness and nausea, brain fog and other symptoms of general malice. Not pleasant. Never ending.

Extra estrogen when tried via HRT was like a poison to me. I am now desperate. I am now trialing the progesterone cream. The NHS have no other options for me.

If you have any other ideas, I'd appreciate them? 

[HelloSam666]

Hurdity, to quote you:

 As far as I know there haven't been studies that show that progesterone cream alone would be sufficient to alleviate menopausal symptoms

Perhaps not, but for my sister and I, progesterone cream has been a godsend and alleviated our main symptoms as i'm sure it has been for many ladies. We'll continue to take it as long as it makes us feel okay. As i've said before, it may not be the answer in the future but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

HRT was like poison for me, for the short time i was taking patches/tablets, i felt horrendous and i wasn't going to wait 3 months to see if that settled down. I sometimes wonder how far behind the UK is lagging when it comes to alternative treatments and the support we women need when looking at alternatives.

[Mary G]

Crispy, I'm really sorry to hear that you are feeling rough but I think splitting the dose is the right approach.   I used to take 50mg progesterone every day but I've reduced it slightly on the advice of a gastroenterologist.  He recommended I reduce both oestrogen and progesterone dose because it was evacuating via the bowels - this is something that dangermouse knows a great deal about and reading posts on here would suggest it's a common problem.  It's almost like an inability to process hormones properly.

For "oestrogen dominance" read "volatile, spiking oestrogen and low progesterone".  It took me years to work out that this was the cause of my silent migraines.

Keep going Crispy and tweak the dose again if necessary.   It might be worth emailing the doctor for some input too.

Sam66, if you have found a regime that works for you, don't even think about changing it.

[Blue Kingfisher]

Hi all,

Long time no post as I’ve been trying to get into a good rhythm with progesterone lozenges & oestrogel. I basically can’t seem to tolerate the lozenges every day (they put me in a coma after taking it a few days in a row). Ive tried taking it every other day & this works for a while but then it all,gets too much & I crash like ive done now.  I’m taking 2 pumps of oestrogel on the mornings when I haven’t had progesterone the night before & then 3 pumps when I’ve taken progesterone the night before. I’m wondering if you can take lozenges as a sequi regime I.e. 7-12 days lozenges and then stop until the next month. I didn’t take the progesterone lozenge last night and thinking about not taking it again for a while to see if it’s the cause of my symptoms.

I’m wondering if sequi might suit me better so does anyone know if you can use lozenges in this way.

I’m feeling exhausted, depressed, headaches and fed up of feeling ill & struggling to get much quaility of life.

[CrispyChick]

Lots of replies ladies 

I'm feeling brighter now I'm back down to my 50mg. Still stupidly woozy with nausea and an odd head feeling, but yesterday after 2 full days on 100mg prog cream - I was experiencing symptoms I've never felt before.

Proof of absorption. I think so.   

Blue kingfisher - I can't help you, but I'm assuming if you are on lozenges you use a compounding pharmacy and prescriber??? You also confirm absorption  . I'm sure one of the more experienced ladies can help.

I think you're absolutely right Sam. These bhrt clinics are fully booked. Some have closed to new customers, others you need to book up to 2 months in advance. Where are all the ladies using this bhrt...? Not in this forum it would seem.🤔.

There really needs to be a place on this forum for us to opely discuss these 'alternatives'. We are all woman trying to find a route through this stage of our lives. I personally find the advice I have received from Mary, Dangermouse and Sam invaluable.

Whether there is science behind it or not, we should be able to discuss. From what I've read there are studies demonstrating absorption and others not 🤷‍♀️, but there is nothing recent. I'm not normally a synic, but I'm now left wondering if the 'scientific' answer of the pill, with it's artificial progestin, hasn't in some way left me in this unbalanced state. We're the generation that started popping the pill in our late teens and continued all through our lives - is there science to show how it may/may not harm your long term hormonal balance?

That said, if someone can point me to a conventional treatment, under the NHS, I'll greatfully take it. All ideas welcome 😁

We're all just striving for the same thing - quality of life.

[Perinowpost]

The pill didn’t unbalance me cos I never took it. Neither did I have any issues until peri meno when falling levels of hormones caused symptoms. I think those of us who are struggling haven’t got the balance of hormones right for whatever reason (for me it’s inability to tolerate the progesterones currently available).

I don’t know the answer to your question Blue Kingfisher but maybe Mary G will have some insight.

We are discussing alternatives right here on this post, and hopefully between us we’ll be able to get somewhere x