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[HelloSam666]

Hi Dangermouse, Crispy Chick,

sorry for the delay replying.

When i was trying to figure out what hormone i was low in - neither the private GP or the local NHS doctor were not able to advise on that, i just decided to do my own research working with the main symptoms i had. I have to say though that the migraines & bad headaches too were becoming debilitating. At one point it was nearly every flipping day and i was reaching for Sumatriptan or co-codamol. I think this was actually worse than lack of sleep as it affected me so much in the daytime. I run my own business so it's not like i could take a day of work when i have a lot of projects in.

My sister, suffering the same is just taking the progesterone cream at night, a slightly lower dose than me and she was actually giddy with excitement to let me know she has had 3 days without a migraine. It's tricky recommending or suggesting a medical regime as we're all different but i was so relieved for her. Now whether it sorts out her anxiety & tiredness is a different matter but too early to know there. Dangermouse, it might be worth trying different amounts /every other day and i'm still figuring out myself what the optimum amount is to take.

i cant see myself using oestrogen any time soon and perhaps i might never need it. From a lot of experiences i've read here and on the Balance app, it causes more problems than it resolves for some ladies. What i do know is that the oestrogen patch caused the worst head pain i've ever experienced in my life.

[Perinowpost]

Hi Crispychick

I couldn’t manage without oestrogen, for me it’s the feel good hormone and puta me back to me. I started it first (before I introduced prog) and will never forget how good it made me feel. I am on evorel 50 patch which is an average dose.

I have problems with progesterone though. I can only tolerate it for 7 days (vaginally) and the last 2 days, and then the 2 days going through withdrawal are hard. Symptoms for me are low mood, irritability, negative thinking (I’m not like this any other time), headache, blurred vision, poor memory, eczema flair up in my hairline and loss of libido.

Hope this helps x

[CrispyChick]

Thanks sam and perinowwhat

I'm pretty sure my problem is estrogen. When I stopped the 10 days of prog, although I was suffering a bit on it, I was fine 2 days after. Its now, at the beginning of my next cycle that I'm awful. This is normal for me, although elevated this month.

I'm guessing you're on utrogestan perinowwhat??? My dose is 25mg micro prog, so much much lower than that used to balance hrt estrogen.

Today I have my first headache at this point in my cycle, since 3 months. So hormones have defo been haywire since adding the prog.

Sam - What brand/dose has your sister started??

I'm so glad you've found something to work. My estrogen dominance diagnosis was after private blood tests. They showed my estrogen was normal, so not high, but my progesterone way low.

I looked at the Biovea website (is that the one you use) and it states this:

Pre Menopausal Women: Apply 1 pump daily, 14 days before expected menses, discontinue use 1-2 days before menses and start again 10-12 days after menses (counting the first day of menstruation as day 1).

Post Menopausal Women: Apply 1 pump daily for 21 consecutive days and discontinue use for 7-10 consecutive days.

So, I assume retention can be an issue. It also looks like my dosage is fairly standard. Obviously you're taking it every day and it's working, so don't stop 🤣

Looking forward to mine arriving and trying the cream instead. Bit disappointed the clinic haven't replied to my query. 🙄.

[dangermouse]

I did, indeed, used to have initial 'dumping of excess oestrogen' back into circulation as it goes through the bowels, much worse nausea etc. My endocrinologist said that when that happens you can either take a few days break and titration up gradually or have a very high dose to override the oestrogen hit. I found the high dose was always too over stimulating when I had high oestrogen levels so would do the stopping and starting until I could tolerate. Now I have found the high dose (min 100mg) immediately calmed everything.

It's not so much about oestrogen or progesterone being bad, more about getting them to type right ratios so there is less volatility but anovulatory cycles etc. make this tricky in peri. Oestrogen does make you feel exhilarated and progesterone calms that down but, for me, one oestrogen has got into my system it causes all sorts of vestibular and neurological over-excitation, hence the motion sickness.

Yes I don't know the science about oral progesterone going down oestrogen or testosterone pathways but my endo mentioned and I have read a few times it's to do with the liver and poor digestion. It may be very rare though, but something to consider.

[dangermouse]

As a very loose guide, I have found through the combined pills and HRT, that feeling anxious and overwhelmed is too high oestrogen/low progesterone and feeling the opposite, flat and depressed is too low oestrogen/high progesterone.

Other symptoms like motivation happen with both as you can either feel as if you can't be bothered or there is a sense of anxiety that freezes you into not acting. Hot flushes go away with either hormone. 

[Perinowpost]

Yes Crispychick I’m on utrogestan.

I agree with that Dangermouse. Though for me I can be on oestrogen for approx 20 odd days (roughly about a cycle) and feel perfectly fine before I feel I need any prog. Then when I add in prog I find it calming for a couple of days, but very quickly feel low/depressed (within 5/6 days) on it, so just can’t tolerate much of it x

[dangermouse]

I would guess that the progesterone is stirring the oestrogen up and may also be the oestrogen receptor issue, as the body is always trying to reach homeostasis, by reducing and reopening receptors. In the same way that high amounts of the opposing hormone that you need can dampen receptors to stop trying to surge.

As Mary G always says, consistency is the key, so stopping and starting can create a rollercoaster.

[HelloSam666]

Hi everyone,

i do agree that the amounts of hormones we're taking has a profound effect. This was my experience when i first start HRT (with oestrogen & progesterone). It was a few days after taking the first does that i had a weekend away with my sisters to the coast, one year anniversary after dad's death. It should have been a good weekend in that my sisters, although living in different parts of the UK, got together, we have a good relationship and wanted to celebrate dad. It was awful for me, like an alien had invaded my body that's the only way i can describe it. I felt physically tired, run down, depressed, couldn't sleep and everything annoyed me. I literally could not think straight

So i will say this from experience of HRT and the cream i've bought that the amount you take must make a big difference. I think i was slightly low on progesterone as it's helped incredibly with my symptoms. The HRT must have overloaded me and i felt far worse than before starting HRT.

I'll also add that i'm sure i had other symptoms of menopause in addition to migraines / insomnia but didnt realise it as now i feel so much better in my self, calmer, less stressed when work gets manic and like a normal person again. It's hard to describe but my god, i must have been a horrible person at times.

[Mary G]

It's good to hear from you dangermouse.

Sorry to hear about your migraine attacks but it sounds like they are oestrogen induced like my silent migraines.   Do you have an aura?  I don't understand the science behind hormone receptors in the body but it makes sense. 

I started a thread in the new post menopause section about my inability to tolerate high doses of oestrogen now that I am older (60) and how it causes loose bowels and (to a lesser extent) migraines if I go too high so what you are saying makes complete sense.

I consulted a gastroenterologist who advised me to reduce my daily dose of oestrogen and progesterone and it worked immediately.   He said he meets a lot of female patients who find that HRT causes gastrointestinal issues as they get older which ties in with your point about dumping excess hormones.

The difficulty most of us seem to have is finding that magical, ideal, stable dose that keeps symptoms away without side effects which is complicated further by our own hormone levels falling in the background.   I have found that my oestrogen tolerance/migraine threshold has reduced with age which complicates matters further.   

So now I just take a low dose of oestrogen, progesterone and testosterone to keep everything oiled.   Having a bleed is a complete no-no for me.   I just hope I don't have to reduce further.

[CrispyChick]

Thanks folks,

It's really helpful to hear all these perspectives. Sam - I totally relate to your experience of hrt. My trial on the estrogen part of femoston sent my symptoms off the scale. In fact, that's how I know these are estrogen symptoms rather than prog come down.

I'm still puzzled though. Dangermouse you mention a stop start approach to help adjust. But I stopped the prog 7 days ago and, although whilst taking it was no where near smooth, the days since have been horrific with my high estrogen symptoms. Suppose if it triggers estrogen, it triggers it for longer than the time taking it 🤷‍♀️, so this could be the 'dumping'. Hope it doesn't dump for long 

I totally agree, it's not about overall levels, but balance. I firmly believe that I'm probably affected by a small shift in this balance. The doctor did ask if I was especially sensitive to meds when prescribing, which I am, in general. Can't take codeine for example.

Mary - it sure is never ending. They should give us degrees in this subject!!

Do you take breaks at all Sam??? Or take it every single day?

Dangermouse - are you overall a lot better than you were in early peri, now your estrogen has dropped too??? I need hope. I'm at the 5 year mark and still just as bad 🤷‍♀️😭.  Been off and on pills a lot of that time... Been awful really. I can recognise now that they dampen things down, but most made me feel pretty ill too. So this compounded prog is a new route for me.

I should add I've now completed 3 weeks of a testosterone/Dhea cream. Can't say I've noticed anything from that yet. I've to take that every day. 👍

[Nas]

I hope you ladies get on okay with finding a balance of hormones.
It is such a bloody minefield for sure!

I was so determined to try the Well springs cream, but had reached crisis point by BH Monday, in that I needed oestrogen in my body, else I wasn't going to work for a very long time. I did not want to take time off sick, so slapped back on the patch. I am going to bleed in a couple of weeks, but am hoping the NHS will give me a scan appointment before long (and IF i DO have endo cancer, be it on their shoulders, as I have asked and asked for a whole month now!)

It is a very tough journey and I feel medics aren't necessarily best placed to help us. Sometimes, we need to take our hormonal health into our own hands, as some of you are and already have. I too will be doing the same, in that I am continually trying different regimes to find a sense of balance in the body and mind.

[HelloSam666]

Hi Crispy Chick,

i know you're supposed to take a break with progesterone cream, 5 - 7 days although i did read on Wellsprings that some ladies don't take a break in the first 3 months or some just take a break for around 3 days.

I have to confess that after 2 months i stopped taking it (intending to take the 1 wk break) but my goodness, i could tell the difference within a couple of days - it was my mood in the daytime that reared it's head first. I was snappy at my partner for small things ....leaving crumbs on the worktop after making a sandwich, hardly a crime & such like. Now, i remember being like that before i started the cream, i had little patience for anything and no enthusiasm for anything either. So anyway, to cut a long story short, i'm not taking a break at the moment and whether its right or wrong, i don't care as i'm on a roll and don't want to cause any waves with it.

By the way, on a different note, is there a way to get email notifications when you receive a reply on the forum? At the moment i have to remember to log on and see if there is any. Thank you!!!

[Nas]

Hi Sam,
Just click 'notify' at the end of the box. Then you will receive notifications by email 

[HelloSam666]

Thanks so much Nas, i'll do that now  Much appreciated, Sam

[CrispyChick]

Interesting Sam, thank you.

I think I've got a long way to go... First things first - I'm feeling at my worst, so I need to establish if the prog helps. I need to find out if cream better route.

Then, if it helps, but I'm roller coastering, I guess I need to question breaks at that point.

I've researched a lot of reviews on prog creams... So hopefully most of them are genuine.

I've to call the pharmacy to discuss capsules versus cream, so I'll do that Mon. Also the clinic have passed my query to my dic, so hoping she will respond before I restart prog middle next week.

I totally agree - if you've found something that works, don't change it. I've been trying so long to find something that works.

Nas - I really hope you get that scan. It's an awful position to be in. Xx