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[ariadne]

We aren't designed to sleep for 7-8 hours in a row.  Our sleep cycles go in 4 hour stints and depending on our own personal set-up, we will wake up at the end of a cycle. 

SueLW,  I also read this not so long ago. It was probably in the Mail or Mail supplement. It was very interesting.

Ariadne xx

[Noheroicsplease]

Thanks so much to all of you - some really helpful stuff here.

Sue, while i have no desire to have a snack with my neighbour at 2am, I do get up and 'accept' the sleeplessness!

Two things stand out that are a) a low dose anti-depressant - that might be worth exploring b) getting my adrenals sorted. i'm pretty sure they're empty. Everything else - all sleep hygiene is in place.

x

[Noheroicsplease]

Eleanor, yes please - what is the name of the anti dep the doc suggested?

[Night_Owl]

Re: Adrenal Fatigue - SueLW posted some great information on another thread that I can't find right now - suggesting food grade Vit C 1000mg x 3 times daily, B Complex, Magnesium, sea salt, lavender oil.

I've never experienced great sleep when on HRT, always insomnia/night sweats/washing machine brain - high to low dose, in fact I think it was worse on high.  But hey ho, we're all different.

As an aside, just got a prescription of 10mg Amitriptyline AD which I'm going to break in half and take at night - apparently it's a useful sleep aid. Not comfortable taking ADs as none seem to agree with me, however will give it a try at this very low dose and hope the side effects aren't too bad.  I'm trialling 3 months off HRT - yet again.  Could be worth a try ....

[sheila99]

My body isn't designed for a 4 hour sleep cycle. We tried the normal 4hrs on, 4 hrs off when we were ocean sailing. I got so tired on it I couldn't fuction properly so we changed to 6 hours.
  I've been on 3 pumps of oestrogel to control low mood, anxiety & insomnia. On this dose only insomnia was a problem (could get to sleep but woke around 2-4am and stayed awake til 6). Several days ago I reduced it to 2 to see what happened, and I have had an uninterupted 6 hrs sleep most nights since. I am also wondering if too much oestrogen makes it worse.

[kinola67]

I use 10mg Amitryptyline when I need to catch up, I got it a while back from my GP and didn't really want to use it but I have to say as long as I take it early eve, I am then able to fall asleep and stay asleep (or get back to sleep if I wake up), I used to feell quite groggy in the morning with it but if I get the timing right it works out fine. If you feel you've tried everything then yes all the advice above it good, you can't beat the hormones but you can help aid your sleep with sleeping aids. The estrogen point is very interesting, estrogen is a stimulant so would it not follow that too much leads to insomnia, nightmares etc? Although it's the drop in estrogen that causes the night sweats so people assume their estrogen is low if they have the sweats. I think my hormones are high and low all over the place at the moment still being in peri, so I'm thinking I just have to accept that some days will be worse than others depending where I am in my cycle and use sleeping aids when I need to. On top of the vitamins, sprays, herbal tea, banana eating and relaxation - of course! 

[Kathleen]

Hello ladies.

Apart from some insomnia at the beginning of my meno journey my sleep hasn't been too bad, however my days are plagued by mood swings and anxiety.

Sheila99 - your experiences with 3 pumps of gel are very interesting. I was also on 3 pumps but had very tender breasts so reduced to two and that problem disappeared.

The juggling act we have to endure to feel even halfway normal is exhausting!

Wishing everyone well.

K.

[Imsuddenlyevil]

Oh honey that sounds like a nightmare. Same here too especially now early dark nights I want go to bed at 6pm! I go at 10pm awake by 3sm and then attacked by dark thoughts for hours while I try to sleep.
You vent girl hope things improve soon I'd send you a hug but I bet we share sore boobs too haha take care xxxxxxx

[Milamam]

I went through a very bad patch of insomnia in the summer. I was finally put on Mirtazapine 15mg and that sorted it. Saved my life! I have these past days tried to cut to 7.5 mg and do not sleep as well as I did. So will return to 15mg tomorrow . I am still perimenopausal at 48, but periods further apart. I used to have night sweats and hot flushes but strangely they have disappeared in the past few months.

I would say don't be afraid to try whatever remedy you are offered. I was so scared of meds but realised that I need help this time. Not everything works for everyone, we are so different.

So try and see what will work for you!

Milamam

[CLKD]

If you are hungry, do you not eat  ?

[Noheroicsplease]

CKLD - not sure what your most recent post about hunger means?

For those of you taking small dosages of Anti=deps - are there side-effects? Are they addictive?

[CLKD]

People seem worried about taking medication short-term to aid sleep - if the brain needs rest, why not?  If you are hungry, do you not eat?

How was last night?

[Annie0710]

I was on 10mg amitriptyline, not addictive, brill for sleep BUT they made my dry eye worse (apparently)

I'm gutted as they were marvellous for my back pain x

[SueLW]

We aren't designed to sleep for 7-8 hours in a row.  Our sleep cycles go in 4 hour stints and depending on our own personal set-up, we will wake up at the end of a cycle. 

SueLW,  I also read this not so long ago. It was probably in the Mail or Mail supplement. It was very interesting.

Ariadne xx

I don't read the Mail so I didn't see it there.  I think it was online, and quiet detailed.  Also, there have always been night owls and early birds.  Even back when people had no option other than to sleep when it got dark.  Some would be awake and guarding the sleeping group, then swapping for sleep when others woke up.

[Conolly]

I wish I could remember where I read about this so I could share it with you.  It was probably in the past 2 years and was so interesting I looked into it further and found other things to corroborate it.

We aren't designed to sleep for 7-8 hours in a row.  Our sleep cycles go in 4 hour stints and depending on our own personal set-up, we will wake up at the end of a cycle.  Many of us just go to the bathroom and then back to sleep.  But back in time, in the 1600's and forwards, it was normal to go to bed early, wake in the early hours and get up for an hour or two.  Neighbours would visit each other for social interaction or to share a small meal.  Or they would read by candle or fire light, or just talk to each other.  The main thing was that they got up and did something for an hour or two and then went back to bed for another sleep cycle.  It was only the advent of the industrial revolution that stopped this because people were too exhausted to do anything other than sleep when they worked in the factories, half-starved and barely holding it together.

These wake/sleep cycles are controlled by cortisol.  Cortisol is badly disrupted by hormonal changes because it's produced by the adrenal glands, which end up trying to fill the hormonal gaps by taking over production of flagging thyroid or sex hormones.  You can't fight cortisol, you have to try to work with it.  Have you tried adrenal supplements like adaptogens to help?  You could try Holy Basil at bedtime for a month to see if it would break the cycle for you.

I experienced what you are experiencing earlier on in perimenopause.  I realised that I was totally exhausted if I stayed in bed in the dark fretting about being awake.  So I got up and did something relaxing for an hour (just like our ancestors but without knowing about that at the time.).  I would sit at my desk in desk lamp light and colour or paint.  Or sit on the sofa in lamplight and read.  I would make a hot drink and eat an adrenal helpful snack (protein, salt and vitamin C).  Then I'd start to feel a bit more relaxed and sleepy, I'd hang on a bit longer and then back to bed to sleep until I had to get up.  It really, really helped.  Your body is awake at that time because of hormones.  You can't force it back to sleep so you need to adapt.  If you have to get up by alarm then you will need to go to bed quite early.  But that's OK because you will have an hour or two during the night to get more relaxation and personal time.  You could even do some gentle yoga at that time.

That phase of my life has passed now, but even so, if I get a random night of sleeplessness I make myself get up for a bit.  I was fascinated to find that this was normal and healthy for our ancestors.  Some sleep experts think it is still good for us.  It helps our brains to do what they have to do in the night.  Knowing about the past gives us the permission to not feel stressed, anxious or bad about being awake.  I did find a friend (sadly since died of cancer) who was going through the same thing.  We often chatted on Facebook when we were up in the night and would treat it as social time.

Hello SueLW,


Very interesting, thank you. That sounds like my cat's sleeping patterns. 


Conolly X