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[Jari]

Just to explain a little: Phytoestrogens literally work like a key. The cells in your body have estrogen receptors on them that act like a lock; they need a key that fits into that lock to stimulate them into activity. This activity can be beneficial in certain places in the body such as bones and brain where you want the cells to stay active, but can be negative in other places such as breasts and womb, where you do not want cells to be too stimulated. There are two different kinds of estrogen receptors, alpha and beta. We have alpha receptors in breasts, ovaries and womb and beta receptors in brain, bones, blood vessels and bladder, as well as breasts, brain and womb. Breasts, ovaries and womb therefore have both, alpha and beta.
Hrt triggers both alpha and beta, which is why it can increase the risk of breast, ovarian and womb cancer when it stimulates the cells in those areas.
Isoflavones work in a completely different way. They block alpha receptors in the breasts, ovaries and womb, but stimulate the beta in brain and bones.  X

[Jari]

CLKD just to point out from Wrensong's link. This is of course just focused only on lignans and particularly flaxseeds only. Lignans being one type of phytoestrogen, but taking that into consideration, it's great how the article explains how beneficial they would be for you as a post menopausal woman with BC history. Me too! 👍

Clip below!! Thank you Wrensong for pointing this out!

Lignans, which are the type of phytoestrogens in flaxseed, can change estrogen metabolism. In postmenopausal women, lignans can cause the body to produce less active forms of estrogen. This is believed to potentially reduce breast cancer risk. There is evidence that adding ground flaxseeds into the diet decreases cell growth in breast tissue as well. Again, this would be the type of change that would be expected to decrease breast cancer risk.

All cells have the ability to go through a process called apoptosis, or programmed cell death. It is believed that through this process, the body can prevent damaged cells from reproducing, and eventually developing into cancer. Researchers have shown that flaxseed sprouts can increase apoptosis (programmed cell death). Some cell and animal studies have shown that two specific phytoestrogens found in lignans, named enterolactone and enterodiol, may help suppress breast tumor growth.

Animal studies have shown that both flaxseed oil and lignans can reduce breast tumor growth and spread, even for ER- cancer cells. This result suggests that flaxseeds may have anti-cancer benefits that are unrelated to any type of effect on estrogen or estrogen metabolism.

[Wrensong]

Shadyglade, sorry you didn't find the link helpful - I didn't search for the most relevant to CLKD's query - merely remembered posting a link on the subject on another thread a few days ago.

Jari - I find the whole field of diet as it relates to health & disease fascinating, but cannot comment with your certainty that phyto-oestrogens are not potentially harmful in some situations.  I have wondered whether genetic variations in races that traditionally eat diets high in phyto-oestrogens could account for the differences in expression of their effects.  Does anyone here know?  All very interesting ladies & I am keen to learn from you.  It is certainly not my intention to create conflict. 

[Jari]

Hi Wrensong, your article is very helpful in pointing out how phytoestrogens block cancer cell growth.

Although just to point out, your article is just focusing on flaxseeds only, nevertheless, very positive, it's also worth mentioning that of course, to have a good hormone balancing diet, we must try to do exactly that and balance well with the 300+ types of phytoestrogen foods!

[Wrensong]

Yes Jari - that's what makes the article interesting imo!   As I said above . . .

"But the article also cites research showing that flax seeds may have a useful anti-oestrogenic role. "

My point was that at the recent presentation I attended given by breast health professionals it was felt that not enough is known to recommend one way or another & because of this, their advice was that women with a history of BC should avoid concentrated sources of phyto-oestrogens.  I thought that might be helpful for CLKD to know - given her query & the history she has previously posted about.  As you rightly say phyto-oestrogens are present in lesser amounts in many food sources that it would be impossible to avoid in a varied healthy diet.

[Wrensong]

Haha - yes Jari - glad you found the article helpful in backing your viewpoint! 

[Jari]

True Wrensong, I think it wouldn't be sensible to focus on one concentrated food type.

Balance is key! X

[Sparrow]

I also think it is interesting to note that although rates in Japan for breast cancer are very low, they has been a slow but significant increase attributed to the change to a more Western diet. 

[Jari]

Good point Shadyglade! X

[Wrensong]

Yes Shadyglade - that's often raised & is also very interesting I think.  I ate soya products & later flax seeds for some years pre-menopause, the soya partly because of FH of BC, wanting to try to reduce my own risk & partly to try to improve a digestive condition.  The flax I found helpful for digestive transit, but to my frustration found in peri that I had to stop it as it made my vasomotor symptoms worse - so maybe due to the possible antioestrogenic effect we are discussing here.  I am just not sure enough either way from all I read & given the seriousness of such devastating conditions as breast cancer I tend to err on the side of caution.

[Jari]

Sorry it posted too quickly. Ha!

For me, the alternative options that I am doing are working, without risks. Got to be worth a try before starting on any risky road surely?! X

[Wrensong]

Jari - great to know the alternative approach is working for you.  This is why I said the other day I thought posting about your experience could be very interesting to women wanting to try to manage meno symptoms without using HRT & why I asked you earlier on this thread if you would post here about your diet.  Thank you for doing that.

I agree, definitely worth a try & I spent a decade trying to manage without HRT which I wholeheartedly wanted to avoid, before finally going down that route. 

Never a day goes by when I don't worry about the unknowns of the HRT-BC link.  However, I have been encouraged towards open-mindedness about HRT & BC after discussion with healthcare professionals in the speciality.  Was also heartened by Dr Avrum Bluming's book, Oestrogen Matters, which I think makes refreshing & interesting reading, especially for women struggling with very difficult menopause symptoms either post-BC or with FH of the disease.  His long experience as an Oncologist specialising in the treatment of breast cancer, which several of his own family members have sadly also developed, makes for interesting & potentially liberating reading I think.  But as you say off-topic here.  Sorry for the meander!

[Jari]

I'll try to look at that book Wrensong.

It's a pity that by doing all those things listed, that it didn't help you. I think you said you also have thyroid issues and I'm wondering if that might ?! have anything to do with that. Do you take drugs for that also? If you do, I'm wondering if that throws a spanner in the works.

If ladies start by trying all on list first over at least a year, but then find they still have debilitating symptoms and decide to try hrt, I think it's important that they don't get stuck on it and realise that their own body's hormones will be changing, so for some, they may well find, if they come off hrt after a short period, they may well find that their initial symptoms have lessened or gone...

Very interested to hear from anyone who is doing these alternative choices and how it's working out, or perhaps they are not here on forum?! X

[Wrensong]

Jari - I think you are right - in my experience, the thyroid issue can greatly complicate other conditions as it means the body is already compromised to some degree.  Thyroid replacement works very well for some patients, but imo can never truly replicate the exquisite way in which a healthy thyroid functions.  There are very complex biofeedback mechanisms & interactions that make the field mind-boggling, so I don't profess to understand any more than the basics, but like to try to help out other thyroid patients posting on the forum if I can, both for reassurance & because it can make for a difficult & lonely road to walk. 

In answer to your question I take both Thyroxine & Liothyronine - the latter makes me atypical among hypothyroid patients, so again, my experience may not always be applicable to women who are on Thyroxine only.  Of course, as with responses to HRT & scope & severity of menopause symptoms in the first place, it also seems to be a case that individual experiences differ greatly.  Another reason a forum like this is so valuable - the range of experience & knowledge posted means we can usually all find something helpful here.

Yes, if you are interested Jari - I think the Avrum Bluming book makes for a thought-provoking read and I think it potentially helpful to women whose breast cancer history or family history leaves them struggling with debilitating symptoms & in a very lonely place.  Again, I'm still undecided about about the matter myself, but feel it best to encourage anyone questioning the issues e.g. BC patients posting for advice on this forum, to try to research as widely as possible to make up their own minds, gain a sense of control & feel more involved in any discussions with relevant healthcare specialists.

I also agree with your comment about the need for HRT possibly changing over time, the wisdom of reviewing as our circumstances may change & keeping abreast of new research that comes to light.  A point I touched on in another thread we chatted on a few days ago. 

But for me personally - my symptoms over 13+ years, the debilitating effects & complication of managing other pre-existing health conditions & my response so far to the relatively small amount of HRT I've been exposed to, together mean I need to persevere with it for now for quality of life.  Albeit with fingers crossed behind my back, as much optimism as I can muster & an open mind!
Wx

[Emma]

Breast cancer mortality and use of HRT
23 September 2016

Many women and healthcare professionals continue to be concerned about the association of HRT use and breast cancer. Most recent evidence suggests that HRT does NOT cause breast cells to become cancerous, but that the use of combined HRT (estrogen and progestogen) for more than 5 years, MAY promote the growth of cancer cells which are already present in some women. Importantly, this means that the natural history of breast cancer is not affected by use of HRT.

Further reassuring evidence has been reported from Finland, studying 489,105 women using HRT in 1994 to 2009 and comparing breast cancer mortality rate with that in women not using HRT.

The study showed that the risk of dying from breast cancer was reduced in all users of HRT, regardless of duration of HRT use, age or whether the HRT was estrogen only or estrogen plus progestogen. For age, the largest reduction in risk was in the 50-59 age group, and for type of HRT, estrogen only users showed a larger risk reduction than estrogen plus progestogen.

Overall, in this Finnish population, 1 in 10 women with breast cancer will die from the disease, while 1 in 20 women with breast cancer who use HRT will do so.
While this is an observational study rather than a gold standard randomised controlled trial, these findings add more evidence to the understanding of association of breast cancer risk and of breast cancer mortality in women who use HRT.