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[Hurdity]

I just thought I would start a new topic on this re comment by silverlady as it was raised on another thread and I wanted to talk about it further but going off topic.

I still have a lot left, at the time I found it too strong for me, now I use a minute amount mixed in a pot of face cream to use on my face a couple of times a week. 

silverlady x

I was initially extremely worried about this, thinking of all sorts of dangerous things that could happen - especially if used alongside conventional HRT in an unregulated manner. However since having a read about it now intrigued to know firstly do you notice if it has made a difference to your skin and secondly have there been any side effects eg excessive skin pigmentation?

Also has anyone else tried this and what has been the result - I've only had a quick look on the net and there have been some trials on using Estriol and Estradiol on the face and its effect on aging - eg wrinkle depth, elasticity etc. Not sure if they were placebo controlled or not but I wouldn't have thought a placebo could actually affect things like this....

By raising this I wouldn't want to advocate its general use (especially oestrogel) but it looks like Estriol (which is much much weaker as an oestrogen than estradiol - as contained some vaginal creams) has the potential to have a positive effect on skin without systemic effects... Maybe I will find something that counters this when I look further but still interested in what others have done or think about this.


Hurdity  x

[silverlady]

Here is some info http://www.drmirkin.com/women/8211.html

I do mix a tiny amount of vaginal cream with rose Vaseline to make lip balm for my lips and it does plump them up. It lasts forever.

I will copy and paste from my other post here.   

"I mix a tiny tiny bit in a pot of face cream. Dr Currie in the MM mag suggested that bioidenticals could even be appied to to the face (I can't remember the exact words) in the article about bio identical hormones.

Gel works very well for that, natural progesterone can be used the same way. I am not preaching about it just saying what I do. Its probably homeopathic quantities but it makes a good skin cream and works for me"

I am a bit wary about talking about this on MM in case of being blasted but on power-surge the girls discuss this and are very interested.

Hormone face creams are not new even Marilyn Monroe used them.

If you look on this forum you will lots pf people talking about this  http://www.smartskincare.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=20

silverlady x

[Hurdity]

Thanks for the info.

I can't find any mention of using estradiol on the face in the recent article on bio-identical hormones by Dr Currie. I can only find this one from a link on this website?
http://www.menopausematters.co.uk/pdf/magArticle4.pdf
This particular article urges caution in using "bio-identical hormone therapy" (as practised in the US) and recommends conventional HRT until further research is carried out.

Maybe there was an earlier article? If so do you know how to find it or do you have a copy (ie in e-format)?

I would have thought it would be very unwise for anyone to start using oestrogel on their face because it is designed to be absorbed systemically so would add to your overall oestrogen levels which need to be opposed by sufficient progesterone.  It is far too concentrated (for this purpose) and may have some adverse effects on the skin too - I haven't looked for any up to date studies yet. It would be difficult to regulate the amount - of course if you have no womb this is not so much of a worry, but still I would not risk it personally. There doesn't appear to be a vaginal (ie cream) containing oestradiol - presumably because of the risks, which is why vagifem is a tablet for vaginal use.

Re the link you put up - thanks - I get the gist but she does sound a bit cranky to me - a proponent of compounding pharmacies and for example recommending using Premarin powder mixed in your face cream!!  How weird is that? Horse oestrogens on your face?

I can see the potential for a little bit of Estriol cream sufficiently diluted, if there are no warnings of adverse effects used in this way though especially as one of the vaginal creams is already very weak (Gynest)

It would be good to see some up to date studies - but I am also interested in what women are actually doing regarding this, as well.


Hurdity x

[silverlady]

As I said I am not preaching about it and I would never use estrogel neat on my face and I did say I used the tiniest amount added to a pot of cream.

I can't remember which MM magazine it was and I pass all my mags on, I do remember it was about bioidenticals and this was mentioned and I remember thinking we had had a discussion on MM about it.

As I have said I don't really like discussing this on MM, there is plenty information if anyone is interested on the web and on a lot of forums.

Its for people to decide for themselves, I could go providing links but I think there will always be criticism and for and against.

We only have a proportion of women on here who would be interested anyway.

Facial fillers seem to provoke similar reaction , somethings are best kept beauty secrets

silverlady x

[Hurdity]

Just to add to what  I said and Cassie's comment on the other thread below:

I know I read somewhere that the French ladies rub it on their cellulite areas and it apparantly helps, you should rub it in slowly and deeply and any bits left over on your hands can be wiped off on your neck or your face apparantly, it is good for the skin!

Yes I think this is the point re using on the face - any bits left over - so you would not be giving yourself any extra if it was whatever was left over from the pumped dosage.

I did read that it can cause excessive skin pigmentation such as in pregnancy, when used on the face - and it looks like the French women Cassie reports have a cavalier attitude towards it, using it neat like that!

Hurdity x

[viv]

So I cant go sticking my patches on my wrinkles then 

I think it sounds very interesting. I dont have too many wrinkles (yet) but my under eye area is a bit iffy and my jaw line is blurry now.

Holding back the years without surgery......hmmmm.....yes please.

Honeyb
x

[Hurdity]

honeybun - I don't think you are supposed to use anything like this anywhere near the eyes

meno-me you are not gormless
Bio-identical - the true meaning of the word is a compound which is chemically/biologically the same as the one we have in our body.
So - estradiol in many of the HRTs is bio-identical to our own oestradiol, but it is synthesised from a similar compind extracted from soy or yam.
Utrogestan contains micronised progesterone - and again this is the same molecule that is found in our bodies, and again synthesised I think from soy or yam - I'm never sure which!

This is not to be confused with "bio-identical hormone therapy" - a term used in the US for something similar but it is a commercial thing where women get special compounding pharmacies to make up an formula of these horomnes supposedly made to measure by saliva testing of their own hormones - which is not credited as accurate. I also understand that they are unregulated. They pay vast amounts of money for this when bio-identical hormones are available. We are a long way from being able to personalise our hormone doses (eg depending on our own levels and our weight) and this would be notoriously difficult. Someone will probably tell me I have got it wrong - the American system - but I think Dr Currie summarised it in her article

Hmm Susan that's a thought - perhaps they have researched it more - otherwise where would they have got the idea from? (to spread it on their face). Does sound like a mad and somewhat dangerous idea - using oestrogel - unless they rub their hands in some other cream first ....

Hurdity  x

oops Susan I posted the same time and said the same thing in a rather wordy way - I can't seem to be brief about these things!

[Cassie]

Oh Honey Bun, you had me giggling so early on a Monday morning, not a bad thing at all mind! I just picture you with a nice little Oestrogen patch over a strategic, stray wrinkle lol!!

I would also be a bit hesitant about just using randon Oestrogen in my face cream but as I said, the little miniscule bit that is left over after I have done my rubbing in, I usually just wipe off on my neck and face, it has never caused pigmentation, but then cannot think that it would as I have a fair amount circulating in my body already, remember Oestrogel sort of builds up, until you get an ideal level circulating in your system, I guess too much could cause pigmentation, but think that was more linked to the Progesterone, not sure really!
Overall, my hair and skin seem to be ok, I have never been blessed with thick hair but the hair loss does seem a bit better since I went onto the Gel. What I am pretty sure of though is, had I not chosen to take any HRT, my skin would have looked a damn side older!
I got very excited about the cellulite story, but sadly, I have not noticed that it has helped that side of things. I also massage it into my butt area sometimes, plenty of fat there to take it up lol!

[catweazle]

Hi Hurdity

I'm glad I spotted this thread. Guess what I've been experimenting with for the last few days? 

Since I've become post meno (last 12 months) I've noticed my face has started to look, well, old!!! Shrivelled and wrinkly!!  I hate looking in the mirror. I'm not on full HRT and the lack of oestrogen in my body is clearly showing on my face! 

I have some gynest cream left over from last summer when I couldn't get hold of any ovestin (gynest didn't work well enough down there for me). So what I've been doing is mixing a tiny amount of the gynest with my usual face cream and applying once a day. If I notice any improvement I'll cut back and see if using it less often still works.

I wouldn't use estradiol on my face but I'm comfortable with estriol as it's less potent and acts on far fewer oestrogen receptors. As I said I'm just experimenting at the moment, and I know some will probably disapprove but it's my personal choice. My self confidence, especially in the way I look, is rock bottom at the moment!

Silverlady I might try mixing a bit of cream with my lip balm, I hadn't thought of that! 

Catweazle x

[Hurdity]

Thanks all v interesting
I'm off to the doc to ask for some Gynest cream - unfortunately Orthogynest pessaries which I use down there won't just do the same thing.  I thought they were just a wax capsule with the cream inside but I tried to chop one open yesterday to get at the cream and it was a solid lump of wax - must be impregnated with the Estriol - can't see me applying that to my face!!!
I suppose I could use one like lipsalve.....
Well who isn't a teeny bit vain and can say they really don't care?
I mean would we choose to look wrinkly if we had the choice?
Anyway if it gives women a bit more confidence at a time when many are feeling less confident, vulnerable and some even depressed - then what's the harm - it is natural and bio-identical after all - not as if we are spending a fortune going under the knife.... or injecting our faces with nerve poison!!!
Yes crimson I agree re a tiny bit wouldn't do any harm at all - but worried about some reading this who maybe aren't members - might just read one post and start squirting the stuff all over so just expressing caution!

Hurdity  x

[silverlady]

We all have different types of skin and react differently to what we put on our faces, I inherited my Italian grandmother's skin, so not too sensitive, but others maybe quite different.

Well diluted estriol should not pose a problem, just make sure that the face cream you use is the one you know won't react on your skin.

Natural progesterone cream is well known for being good for the skin also, if you do your research you will find that it was orignally first used in a face cream and was called something like Cielo ( I know it began with C) I will look it up. There are some British papers published, British Journal of Dermatology I think about natural progesterone cream being tested and found to have some effect.

" What if progesterone had a role similar to estrogens in skin health and could be used topically to prevent or partly reverse menopausal skin deterioration? A study published in The British Journal of Dermatology in September 2005 seems to point in that direction. This 16-week study in 40 women, conducted by Dr. Holzer and colleagues, evaluated the effects of 2% progesterone cream on function and texture of the skin in women at or after menopause. The study design was robust: double-blind, placebo-controlled, and randomized. The results showed 23% increase in skin firmness, 29% reduction in wrinkle count near the eye and almost 10% reduction of the depth of laugh lines. No serious side-effects were observed"

sorry posted before i was finished

silverlady x

[silverlady]

There has be an awful lot of research into the application of estrogen in wound healing in the elderly (both men and women) and it has found that it hastens healing, that I find very interesting. 

silverlady x

[Hurdity]

Natural progesterone cream is well known for being good for the skin also,

" What if progesterone had a role similar to estrogens in skin health and could be used topically to prevent or partly reverse menopausal skin deterioration? A study published in The British Journal of Dermatology in September 2005 seems to point in that direction. This 16-week study in 40 women, conducted by Dr. Holzer and colleagues, evaluated the effects of 2% progesterone cream on function and texture of the skin in women at or after menopause. The study design was robust: double-blind, placebo-controlled, and randomized. The results showed 23% increase in skin firmness, 29% reduction in wrinkle count near the eye and almost 10% reduction of the depth of laugh lines. No serious side-effects were observed"

This is all very interesting...
Yes I have read there are progesterone as well as (more) oestrogen receptors in the skin and it has a role in skin elasticity.
Oh dear am too busy at the mo' to read all about this with gardening, working and going away soon, so mustn't get distracted. Interestinly I read that some of progesterone's physiological effects are enhanced in the presence of oestrogen - I think that was Wikipedia - which I think provides a good summary of some scientific info where there are citations.

What I don't understand is why this hasn't been marketed - surely there must be some compamny out there dying to make a fortune out of this - maybe insufficient safety studies using larger numbers of women have been done?

Wound healing - how interesting. This is all new to me - thanks silverlady

Hurdity x

[silverlady]

It has though "Natural Progesterone Cream"

One of its benefits has been described as good for the skin.

To make it weaker you just add some to a face cream.

HUrdity here is some more info  http://www.antiaging.com/cyberhealth/index.html

You had better wait until you come back of your hols before you tackle it

silverlady x

[Hurdity]

Meno-me - Exactly!
Synthetic means it has been synthesised ie made from something else, as opposed to extracted (ie extracted from human ovaries or something).  Yes it is bio-identical. It is all very confusing especially when you put "natural" into the mix. One could argue that conjugated equine oestrogens are more "natural" than synthesised oestradiol - (not sure exactly what they do the horse pee once they've got it!). Oestradiol is also derived from a natural product - a similar molecule I understand - which is manufactured from soy or yam.
Here is what an American site says:
"The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) considers bioidentical hormones to be natural regardless of their source, and as a result they cannot be patented. "

silverlady - I've made my appt with one of my good female GPs for mid June so Estriol cream here I come.... (I hope). Will read further about the natural prog vs oestrogen effect on skin. I have a natural aversion to the latter because of the hard sell and lack of scientific evidence re menopausal symptoms but as a potential face cream - well that's different - lol!
I was meaning Estriol cream re commercial marketing though. Maybe there is an antipathy due to potential/perceived risks which is not the case for prog, or possibly couldn't get a license.

Hurdity x