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[Pippa52]

I have found this thread incredibly interesting.  As someone who went through surgical menopause aged 42 HRT was an essential for me and it worked really well for over 20 years or so on Oestrogel but Besins slightly changed the formula ( I am stupidly sensitive to any change in anything) and I stopped absorbing it and my blood level went down to 42 so I was swapped onto Lenzetto which at that time was thought to be a stronger dose but as it turns out I was on way too low a dose and I was on it for about a year before being changed again onto Estradot which were amazing for me.  However since the manufacturer changed from Novartis to Sandoz the patches are ceasing to work for me again.  They may say nothing has changed but for me it definitely did as it has for a lot of other women who have posted online and Dr Naomi Potter has a thread on Instagram about it.  So sadly I am faced yet again with the trauma and disruption of changing yet again.  My Meno Cons has advised Lenzetto but at a higher dose than I was on previously.  I have just had a blood test for levels done so depending on the result of that I have been told to start on 2 sprays and after a week up it to 3.  I personally don't re-act well to high doses but everyone is different and as my Meno conusult said go by your symptoms your body will tell you and providing there is enough in your system for protection for bones etc that is ok.  Some people absorb better than others its all such a personal thing and surely if someone needs a higher level then thats fine and if they need a lower level and its giving enough protection then thats fine too.  I am 72 now and have no intention of stopping HRT - they can pop a bottle in my coffin!! . Thanks ladies for the info on this thread its all so helpful to us all.

[Mary G]

Pippa, I hope the new regime works out for you.  I found Lenzetto very user friendly and if you don't want a really high dose,  you should find three pumps I'd about right and i managed to get to the late 200s with that dose.

It's great that you have a good menopause specialist.  My sister who has osteopenia had a telephone consultation with a supposed NHS specialist who has told her that HRT won't increase her bone density and it "might" just about delay it for some women who take HRT before they develop osteopenia. This individual was clearly very anti HRT.  She has told her to do nothing for a year wait and see if gets worse. She is currently using Evorel conti which is too weak and doing nothing and I wouldn't be surprised if she stops using it now.

I utterly despair to be honest.

[Pippa52]

Mary G - thanks so much for your post.I am  so sorry to hear about your sister.  Its just a postcode lottery as to whether good advice is there or not and still sadly so many specialists/doctors don't seem to have the up to date info on HRT so we women are the ones that suffer . Can she ask for a second opinion? I hear you re despair I truly do.  Thanks again so much for posting re your experience with Lenzetto.  Are you still taking it? . x

[Dandelion]

Hello again ladies.

It is true that I am one of the older members of MM  ( I will be 69 in September) and I have been posting on this site for a long time,
( a longstanding member indeed,  thanks for pointing that out Wrensong lol!).

All of this means that I have endured various aspects of the menopause. This has included being with and without HRT and suffering the effects both good and bad. It has been and continues to be a rollercoaster ride.

My aim now is to be stable both physically and emotionally and I am taking a break from HRT to see if that helps at all.

At the end of July I will post an update for anyone interested, with any luck my poor old mind and body will have calmed down and I can stop worrying about my hormones! I live in hope.

Take care ladies and wishing you all well.

K.

I'd be interested in hearing an update from you 🙂
I know what you mean about the rollercoaster, it's been that way for me, but with different menopausal reasons, being a poor absorber and acquiring new symptoms, just while my body hadn't yet got enough oestrogen, until I saw my Dr on Monday and started a treatment plan of more increases and a testosterone tweak 🙏
I would be scared to be honest, to go without my oestrogen as it is intense mentally and the biological fact is our bodies do deteriorate without it and it puts us at risk of all these horrible diseases and disabilities.
I guess I gave up until last year, because I had been on 100mcg (worked the best out of all my HRT doses back then) but "had to" reduce due to bleeds.
I really hope you can find the right HRT which is best for you so your body is safeguarded against these risks and you feel well again.

[bombsh3ll]

My sister who has osteopenia had a telephone consultation with a supposed NHS specialist who has told her that HRT won't increase her bone density and it "might" just about delay it for some women who take HRT before they develop osteopenia. This individual was clearly very anti HRT.  She has told her to do nothing for a year wait and see if gets worse. She is currently using Evorel conti which is too weak and doing nothing and I wouldn't be surprised if she stops using it now.

Your poor sister! Can she afford a private consultation with a specialist who supports HRT?

I agree with the comments above, the NHS seems to consider women requesting HRT rather a nuisance and that its use is best discouraged or minimised.

[Dandelion]

Dandelion, I think a lot of women don't realise their health issues are caused by low oestrogen.  Years ago, my partner's grandmother told me she has no problems with the menopause and then went on to list a whole load of second phase menopause symptoms.  She didn't make the connection and didn't realise they were caused by low oestrogen.

I really don't think the NHS can handle menopause care unless it's prescribing the cheapest, bog standard HRT.  That is what my niece is instructed to do.  They can't deal with problems or provide flexible dosing, I'm afraid people have to work it out for themselves, go to a private specialist or go without.  NHS Menopause clinic are over subscribed with massive waiting lists and from what I've seen on here, they are very by the book and inflexible.  My sister's NHS care with the menopause and osteoporosis is virtually non existent and she has been left to fester on a virtually useless form/dose of HRT.

It sounds like you have the same low oestrogen migraine auras as me Dandelion.  To be honest, I'm pretty pissed off that the medical professional know so little about this menopause symptom.  It's fairly unusual but they should be aware of it.  There is plenty of BS about migraine auras being caused by high oestrogen or oestrogen fluctuations but very little about menopause induced brain stem auras.  God knows how much time I've spent over the past 21 years (when the migraines first struck) working all this out for myself.

By the way I'm 64 now so getting into old bint territory!

Hello Mary
Sorry you have suffered.
I also think a lot of women don't realise their health issues are caused by low oestrogen.
I can't understand why two of my friends don't want to go on HRT, yet they have all of these symptoms and take other stuff.
Then there is another one, who had a hysterectomy about 13 years ago and is only on vaginal hormones. She is afraid of being prodded about downstairs. I can understand ladies feeling uncomfortable with some medics the way they do this. A doctor did this to me last week, as I went asking for more vagifem. I know she was doing it in good faith.

Thank you for sharing about the NHS menopause care.
I think this is not the staff's fault, but there is an agenda to keep menopause in the dark as it's the ideal way to kill woman off (sorry for bluntness) and menopause illnesses progressions can leave us vulnerable and dependent in future.

I know there has been a growing movement, but it's not moving fast enough for my liking.
I know Dr Louise Newson tirelessly bangs the drum, so do other Drs these days, thankfully, but there aren't enough of them.
Dr Naomi Potter said hopefully in the next generation women will be much better informed and aware of the importance of HRT and will appreciate it and want to avoid what us "The older generation" had to go through back in 2025 (sorry for the time travel scenario)
I'd like to think this movement will change things before the next generation.
We don't want our daughters and granddaughters to grow up being horrified at our suffering, we want that suffering in our generations to be dealt with now, and that means mandatory education for all Drs so they know how to prescribe HRT. Dr Newson said it's easy medicine and she is slowly making other areas of medicine aware of the importance of HRT, for instance Cardiology, when they receive patients with menopause induced cardiovascular disease.
There is so much misinformation and outdated information we do need these menopause-awake Drs to multiply in their numbers, but grateful for the current ones banging the drum.
Lol @ old bint, I am sure you are not a bint.
I hope I can get to 64 and far far beyond and be healthy and happy and you are too.

[Dandelion]

Dandelion, I think a lot of women don't realise their health issues are caused by low oestrogen.  Years ago, my partner's grandmother told me she has no problems with the menopause and then went on to list a whole load of second phase menopause symptoms.  She didn't make the connection and didn't realise they were caused by low oestrogen.

I really don't think the NHS can handle menopause care unless it's prescribing the cheapest, bog standard HRT.  That is what my niece is instructed to do.  They can't deal with problems or provide flexible dosing, I'm afraid people have to work it out for themselves, go to a private specialist or go without.  NHS Menopause clinic are over subscribed with massive waiting lists and from what I've seen on here, they are very by the book and inflexible.  My sister's NHS care with the menopause and osteoporosis is virtually non existent and she has been left to fester on a virtually useless form/dose of HRT.

It sounds like you have the same low oestrogen migraine auras as me Dandelion.  To be honest, I'm pretty pissed off that the medical professional know so little about this menopause symptom.  It's fairly unusual but they should be aware of it.  There is plenty of BS about migraine auras being caused by high oestrogen or oestrogen fluctuations but very little about menopause induced brain stem auras.  God knows how much time I've spent over the past 21 years (when the migraines first struck) working all this out for myself.

By the way I'm 64 now so getting into old bint territory!

Hello Mary
Sorry you have suffered.
I also think a lot of women don't realise their health issues are caused by low oestrogen.
I can't understand why two of my friends don't want to go on HRT, yet they have all of these symptoms and take other stuff.
Then there is another one, who had a hysterectomy about 13 years ago and is only on vaginal hormones. She is afraid of being prodded about downstairs. I can understand ladies feeling uncomfortable with some medics the way they do this. A doctor did this to me last week, as I went asking for more vagifem. I know she was doing it in good faith.

Thank you for sharing about the NHS menopause care.
I think this is not the staff's fault, but there is an agenda to keep menopause in the dark as it's the ideal way to kill woman off (sorry for bluntness) and menopause illnesses progressions can leave us vulnerable and dependent in future. I do believe there are a lot of males influencing this who think women are a threat. Patriarchy is still flourishing 😐

I know there has been a growing movement, but it's not moving fast enough for my liking.
I know Dr Louise Newson tirelessly bangs the drum, so do other Drs these days, thankfully, but there aren't enough of them.
Dr Naomi Potter said hopefully in the next generation women will be much better informed and aware of the importance of HRT and will appreciate it and want to avoid what us "The older generation" had to go through back in 2025 (sorry for the time travel scenario)
I'd like to think this movement will change things before the next generation.
We don't want our daughters and granddaughters to grow up being horrified at our suffering, we want that suffering in our generations to be dealt with now, and that means mandatory education for all Drs so they know how to prescribe HRT. Dr Newson said it's easy medicine and she is slowly making other areas of medicine aware of the importance of HRT, for instance Cardiology, when they receive patients with menopause induced cardiovascular disease.
There is so much misinformation and outdated information we do need these menopause-awake Drs to multiply in their numbers, but grateful for the current ones banging the drum.
Lol @ old bint, I am sure you are not a bint.
I hope I can get to 64 and far far beyond and be healthy and happy and you are too.

[Dandelion]

My sister who has osteopenia had a telephone consultation with a supposed NHS specialist who has told her that HRT won't increase her bone density and it "might" just about delay it for some women who take HRT before they develop osteopenia. This individual was clearly very anti HRT.  She has told her to do nothing for a year wait and see if gets worse. She is currently using Evorel conti which is too weak and doing nothing and I wouldn't be surprised if she stops using it now.

Your poor sister! Can she afford a private consultation with a specialist who supports HRT?

I agree with the comments above, the NHS seems to consider women requesting HRT rather a nuisance and that its use is best discouraged or minimised.

Yes, sadly, it's true, even now, in 2025.

[Mary G]

Thanks Pippa, Dandelion and bomb for your kind words.  I'm trying to persuade my sister to consult a private menopause specialist (which she can afford) but it's not easy because she seems to be convinced by what this so called specialist said which is s actually contrary to what the NHS says about HRT and osteoporosis.  I'm thinking the Newson clinic or Professor Panay would be a good place to start.

Pippa, I had to go back to Oestrogel because I needed a higher dose of oestrogen for symptom control.  It's a pity because I found Lenzetto so easy to use.

[Pippa52]

Mary G I do hope your sister does take a second opinion it could be life changing for her.  I go to Rowena Health (via video consultations).  Dr Sonnenberg has been utterly amazing for me and she has wide ranging advice all around Menopause and is a lovely person to talk to. 

I am so glad that Oestrogel works well for you - it really is so individual what works for one person and not another xx

[Mary G]

Pippa, thanks for the recommendation, I've had a look at the website and it seems very good - she can easily get to Guildford for a face to face appointment too which would probably be better for her.

I'm going to send her the link along with NHS and Osteoporosis Society information on HRT and osteoporosis.  I'll have to choose my timing carefully though!

[Dierdre]

Hello ladies.


Speaking personally as a post meno woman I would love to be okay without HRT.

I know several women who have never used it and they are fine, they don't have osteoporosis or CVD and they look well. 
Why that should be I don't know but they seem to have weathered the storm of the menopause and are now settled on a low but stable level of oestrogen.

Personally it is stability that I am hoping for as I take a break from HRT. I do have some VA  symptoms but they are mild. Perhaps they will worsen, perhaps not,   I will certainly consider topical HRT if necessary but for now I need a break from systemic HRT to see where I am naturally.

Perhaps this whole hormone thing is more nuanced than we know. Perhaps Oestradiol in HRT is too strong or inappropriate for some of us, perhaps the weaker Estrone that we continue to have in post menopause is a  better fit? Who knows? We can only experiment on ourselves and hope for the best.

The great thing about this site is that all opinions are represented and that is of value to us all.

Wishing you well ladies and take care.

K.

I didn't want to be reliant on a pharmacy for the rest of my life, which is why I didn't want HRT.
I also looked to the other ladies who appeared to be doing fine, some are super-fit, but dig a little deeper and some don't sleep enough, go to the loo more often, have things like dry eyes, mouth etc, muscular skeletal issues, high blood pressure, diabetes type 2, perhaps go off sex as it's a bit sore down there, none of us knew enough to put these down to menopause.
Also, heart attacks present different in women to men.

I now know that the seemingly symptom free women are still at risk as menopause is just doing it deadly deed silently.

Oestradiol is the oestrogen we lose in menopause, and as there are oestrogen receptors on every cell in our body, and lack of oestrogen is itself, inflammatory, we can now understand why the manifestations of lack of oestradiol is so pervasive, albeit silent in some ladies, at first.
The weaker Estrone is made by our bodies in the absence of oestrogen. This is made in the fat cells, so many of us accquire cuddliness around our middle, - I have that.

So, while I did make the choice to come off HRT last year, it wasn't an informed choice, so I did the opposite and went back to the Dr, and it turns out I need double to what I had.

I found the comment regarding fat cells around the middle interesting. A few years ago I was told my cholesterol was too high (6.9) and I had to take statins which I refused. Instead I lost weight and exercised more losing 2 stone, my cholesterol went down to  non risk. However I felt my health went down too, my VA got worse, I suffered for months with recurring thrush and bladder problems, I had palpatations and anxiety (had Talking therapy) and I'd wake up in the night with my chest and neck wet through.
I went through menopause with mild symptoms, the odd hot flush and palpatation but never needed HRT.

Five years post menopause and I was diagnosed with severe GSM and prolapse and eventually managed to get under control with local estrogens. That was 10 years ago, I'm 69 now. The weight I lost a couple of years ago has gradually crept back, not all, I definately have a cuddly belly, but I feel well. I feel better than when I was thinner. I'm not saying everyone should get fat but maybe we get the middle age spread for a reason.
I've always been naturally thin all my life  until peri menopause when I gradually gained weight and have stayed that way.
I use vagifem and estriol cream nightly so maybe some of that goes systemic and helps, who knows.

[buffy26]

I am 62, I have osteopenia and VA,  and night sweats still, which were not there in the beginning. I wake every morning with a horrible dampness to my PJs and bedding. After two months of bleeding exactly a month apart in April and May, I was referred to have this checked only to be advised by the gynae, that at this age there is little benefit for you being on HRT. Which shocked me, as my oestrogen levels were dropping off to 150 in recent months and surely caused the bleed. I can say for sure there IS a benefit to me being on it. Cognitive function, stiffness and night sweats all went into decline when the levels went down. I am now on Lenzetto, I had a test after 8 weeks and pleased that I am now at over 250, this is on 6 pumps. I asked if I could increase the dose, but was advised that this is now an acceptable level and the NHS would not license the increase. However, I am still on negative levels of testosterone and feel this may be the missing piece of the jigsaw. There are too many symptoms to mention here that continue to bother me which upon reading fit the picture of a lack of this hormone. Its good to read everyones experiences of HRT in the later years. If it helps, then we should be allowed to continue as there are no further dangers of being on it that I am aware of.

[Pippa52]

buffy26 - really interested to hear of your experience of being on Lenzetto as that is what I am being swapped onto because of the shortages.  A lot lower dose to start with though - 2 sprays for a week then going up to 3.  I am seriously hoping it works for me as I am running out of options .  I am on a 50 Estradot patch at the moment.  xx

[Borchesterlass]

Hey Pippa I’m a few months older than you . I think we suffered around our menopause from the fact HRT had such bad press and now it’s the wonder drug . My main problem  has been VA . Early menopause at 45 . The private gyna I consulted 6 months  ago due to an incorrect diagnosis of lichen said I should have been on HRT since then . Hindsight is a wonderful thing . I had been taking vagifem 2 a week for  ten years but things had got worse . Since upping to 5x week massive improvement . Interested to hear how it goes .