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[joziel]

Agree with every word of that, Mary. My own mother not only never took HRT after her ovario-hysterectomy but also had E positive breast cancer and had to take Lexapro which blocked any little E she might have been making elsewhere.... She had a multi-organ vaginal prolapse situation as a result of low estrogen - and finally got prescribed vaginal E. She is also obese, which she never was pre-menopause and hysterectomy.

[SundayGirl]

My mother in law had a full hysterectomy in her 40's and was on HRT for many, many years.

She now lives in a dementia care home, takes multiple meds for heart and circulatory disease and has had several fractures after falls due to osteoporosis.

HRT is not a cure all and magic preventative.

[SundayGirl]

SundayGirl, there is now endless research to uphold all I said........Just google or use ChatGPT if you want to find the research papers, I'm too busy to go looking them up and they are available to all.

Every single research paper I have read include the words may, could, might . I was just curious as to which research you were referring to that states categorically that all risks to future health are decreased.

[joziel]

Sunday, I assume you're aware that HRT is completely useless unless people take a sufficient dose to be protective and test serum levels regularly to ensure they are getting that dose? It's completely pointless to say "X person was on HRT and this awful thing still happened", without knowing what their serum levels were and that they were actually absorbing it.

Fortunately we have science and statistics and research, otherwise we could go back and forwards forever saying "This person did/didn't do this - and this did/didn't happen to them". To avoid that, we have large scale research and studies.

"In the combined WHI trials, compared to placebo, MHT reduces fracture risk regardless of FRAX probability and falls history in postmenopausal women"

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35833956/

"MHT prevents bone loss and the degradation of the bone microarchitecture but it significantly reduces the risk of fracture at all bone sites by 20–40%."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK493191/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

"CVD was reduced by 52% after 10 years of randomized HRT compared with no HRT and reduced by 39% after 16 years of total follow-up"
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9178928/

"We found that HT use was associated with a reduced risk of all-cause mortality."
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-27731-z

"Initiating HRT in women under 60 years of age or within 10 years of menopause onset significantly reduces all-cause mortality and cardiovascular disease"
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9178928/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

"HRT introduction is associated with improved delayed memory and larger entorhinal and amygdala volumes in APOE4 carriers only."
https://alzres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13195-022-01121-5?utm_source=chatgpt.com

I could go on, but I think you get the point.

If women don't want to take it, fair enough. But please don't resolve the cognitive dissonance by dismissing research and refusing to accept science.

[Mary G]

Thanks joziel!

We could argue about the pros and cons of HRT forever and I'm sure everyone has got examples of women who lived to a ripe old age without HRT but what was their quality of life like and what health conditions did they have?  Equally people have examples of women who used HRT and died prematurely or ended up with dementia but I think that is missing the point because it's about quality of life.

If women are prescribed the right type and dose of HRT at the right time, it can make a huge difference to their quality of life and during the first phase of the menopause. It will stop embarrassing and debilitating hot flushes, night sweats, insomnia etc which is vital for women who need/want to continue to work.  We've had numerous women on here who have had to give up work because of debilitating menopause symptoms. A lot of women feel embarrassed in social situations too.  What is the point in suffering these horrible symptoms for years on end if you don't have to?

HRT can hugely improve quality of life in the second phase of the menopause too.  Most women who are now in their 80s don't like talking about the menopause and many of them don't know they are experiencing post menopause symptoms.  Don't forget the old style HRT that people that age used were not as safe or as beneficial because they used conjugated oestrogen. 

If I can be blunt, my mother lied through her teeth about the menopause because she couldn't face it so she hid from the symptoms and pretended it wasn't happening.  Obviously my mother is an extreme case but conversely, I'm always happy to talk to anyone (male of female) about the menopause (including my neighbour who is worried about his wife who is having a terrible time) but people in the older age group are embarrassed to talk about things like the menopause and sex. 

There are some women who can't take HRT and some who don't want to which is fine and nobody is forced to take it.  That said, for women who are prescribed the right type of HRT at the right dose, it can be transformative.

If you feel rubbish on HRT, you need to review your regime.  If I had been given a 50mcg patch when I was at the height of the menopause with hideous, embarrassing sweats, I would have felt crap.

[DottyD68]

Hi Mary,

I agree. I think it is great that some women can find the right type/dose of HRT tranformative and am quite envious. But lets not discount those of us who have tried and been unsuccessful in finding that magic formula. It is not for lack of trying. I am not against HRT at all, I just do not believe women should be made to feel they should be on it to alleviate "risk" of future health conditions when it actually makes them feel unwell.

[SundayGirl]

Joziel you seem hell bent on proving every single thing I say is wrong.

I an definitely not anti-HRT as you seem to think. I am trying to give a balanced view to anyone reading forums like this. HRT is not a fountain of youth and no amount of HRT is going to reverse time and make you feel exactly the same as in your 20's or 30's. That's how some of your posts come across - that you're desperate to get that youthful glow back at any cost. Sorry love, ain't gonna happen.


As for refusing to accept science. Well there's science that is the real stuff and there's the pseudo-science that is posted in many places online that many people are persuaded by.

[Ayesha]

HRT or no HRT, it’s a woman’s choice. What a woman doesn’t need is the fear given from reckless and alarmist posts when we decide to not take HRT or if we decide to wean ourselves of it.
We are intelligent enough to find our own way, to do our own research without being given a lecture on the supposed dire consequences of not taking HRT.

Jeez, how am I still alive!

[Furyan]

I’m actually seriously considering whether I can wean myself off HRT as I’ve had endless problems with weight (gone from UK size 12 to an 18 since increasing to so-called better levels). Obviously I haven’t got the balance right to be struggling with weight and other symptoms like fatigue, but my point is, striving then failing each time to find a good enough balance is not only keeping me symptomatic but is debilitating and takes away my peace. Anything it helps with seems short lived and I need to be on an even keel not up and down like this, which causes more stress to my already stressed nervous system.
Don’t know when I’ll try to reduce or even if it’s feasible at this time as I need an alternative option to ease the transition so if anyone has any ideas about that, that would be good. Going to get advice from my naturopathic doctor too.
As for the views expressed so far, it’s interesting to read different ones, I can see some ‘truth’ in all of them if that makes sense.

[Ayesha]

Makes a lot of sense because we are all unique in our needs, what is right for one will not be for another.

I went on HRT to relieve hot flushes, I couldn't function because they were so debilitating. But then the side effects took over, breast cysts, cervix issues, blood pressure, I always seemed to be at the surgery or referred to the hospital, my anxiety was going through the roof. It was then I decided to come of HRT and what a great relief to my mind and body it was, I actually felt a sense of freedom.

As the ageing process continued I found individual supplements a great help and wouldn't be without them now, I hope you find what is best for you, its all so much trial and error navigating through a changing body. 

[Jane50]

Hi Furyan,

Yes, I agree the posts so far on this topic have been interesting and such diverse experiences and opinions. Which in a nutshell is the problem. There's no one size fits all but I feel like I've been in the changing room trying different things on for an eternity.

I know how you feel when you say all this endless trying takes away your peace. I feel like I'm on a constant quest in a maze with no map and the paths keep changing.

Ayesha - I understand that sense of freedom as I think that's what I'm searching for too. I try not to let it take over my life but it's hard to ignore your body when it's having a rowdy hormone party. I'm so glad you feel better and thank you so much for sharing.

I'm aware of all the varying health advice re using HRT which is why any woman's decision is never taken lightly. We are all striving for our best life and we all have our own journeys. Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to share their opinions and experiences. It's much appreciated.

[Mary G]

Furyan, it sounds like you are one of the many women who end up giving up on HRT altogether because you are taking the wrong type and/or the wrong dose. 

Weight gain suggests hormone imbalance. You haven't said how old your are or what type of HRT you are taking but if you are still symptomatic, it's not working for you. Very often that is because you are taking too much progesterone, not absorbing enough oestrogen or just taking the wrong type of HRT.  Have you ever had your oestrogen levels checked?

When I was in the early stages of the menopause, I used a 50mcg patch with a Mirena coil but it was completely useless and I wasn't getting anything like enough oestrogen - a lot of women might have given up on HRT at that stage and put up with the symptoms for years on end.  It wasn't until I switched to Oestrogel that I finally got breakthrough.

If you are still symptomatic you need help, particularly if you are trying to hold down a job.  I really don't think GPs have the time or the knowledge to deal with the menopause and HRT so it would be better to consult a private menopause specialist and ask them to write to your GP with their recommended prescription.  That way you can keep the cost down.

Personally, I would give it another go.

[joziel]

SundayGirl, no idea where you're getting anything about 'the fountain of youth' from. I wish. That's just being plain nasty. Besides being total bollocks. If it were the fountain of youth, I'd be aging backwards with the dose I'm on.

I will agree or disagree with whoever I end up agreeing or disagreeing with, whenever I give my opinions or thoughts about things. It's nothing personal because forums like this are factual and science based (for me anyway), not about being personal. But if it's really difficult for you to be disagreed with, I'm sorry about that. Most people seem to manage to hear others' perspectives.

As I said before (but for some reason it doesn't seem to have been heard, so let's try again...), if someone knows about all the health benefits and risk reductions of HRT but still decides to stop taking it, that is their choice. I personally don't want to live in a world where anyone is *forced* to take HRT against their will....

But my response to anyone saying they want to stop HRT will be to:

 1) make sure they know about the risks which will increase if they do (and yes, that is science and not pseudo-science, as evidenced in the many papers I posted) - so that their decision to stop can take into account all the pros and cons, otherwise they are making a decision without full knowledge or information which I think we can all agree probably isn't a good idea... and

2) make sure that there isn't anything else they could try which they haven't already thought of (if the reason they are stopping is side effects of some kind).

If me pointing out those two things makes people explode with rage - because they themselves are not taking HRT or have stopped taking HRT, and they just can't deal with reading about the risks of not taking it - not without dismissing them to reduce that nasty cognitive dissonance which they just can't hack, then that's a pretty tough state of affairs. But I sort of fall on the side of believing that science and fact should not be silenced to make everyone feel nice and comfortable, because then where would the world be....? - So, despite being on the receiving end of this crap - I will go on mentioning to people who want to stop that 1) there are risks and 2) have they really tried everything....

And, of course, if they are aware of the risks of stopping and they have really tried everything and just can't get it to work, then that is awful and they have my total sympathy - it would be my worst nightmare - I wish them all the best. But - I'm not going to immediately applaud someone who wants to stop, without checking those two things first. Because I think it's in their best interests to do so.

If that results in anyone's knickers getting in a twist, well, you'll just have to deal with the resulting wedgey I guess...

[dangermouse]

I am not sure whether the OP was asking for a debate on the dangers of coming off HRT, but if that’s what this has become then it should also include the research on the potential risks of taking oestrogen HRT. They both count and should be considered.

When this happened in the Newson thread it was deemed scaremongering and potentially unfair to frighten women in the forum about the facts. Is this not the other side of the same coin?

There have been, at least, two members of MM who were encouraged to keep upping their oestrogen who went on to develop cancer. It has always sat uncomfortably with me that those instances are often brushed under the carpet with a ‘ah that’s a shame, bad luck’ tone.

It is, of course, very hard to prove cause and effect as hormones are so complex and it’s ultimately up to the individual whether they follow advice given on this forum.

All we can really do is report on our own experiences, in the hope that this helps another member. Research studies can provide some helpful testing outcomes but they are not representative of all of our unique, quirky bodies, so they should never be heavily relied on to foretell our futures.

[SundayGirl]

You're correct dangermouse. The possible dangers and/or side effects of HRT are not usually welcomed here. The emphasis being more about the possible benefits.

The OP was asking about side effects of stopping HRT. The question was -

"I know we're all different but would anybody have any experience of symptoms coming off hrt and whether an 8% reduction would be felt in the body straight away? If so, is it likely to settle down? I'm aiming to come off over 3-6 months."

Unfortunately, the responses to that fairly simple question have got muddled up in the argument that followed.

Some posts have been extremely emotive and it's obvious that some posters have very strong pro-HRT views. It's such a shame that we as individuals aren't supported in our decision to stop or never start HRT by ALL our sisters on this forum.

We are all ultimately navigating the same situation but not all of us choose to travel the same path.

There are numerous reasons for our decisions and they are all personal to us and very, very individual.

Joziel -- I am going to be the grown up here and say one last thing.
I wish you all the best in your journey through this time of life. I truly hope you achieve exactly what you're looking for.