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[KaraShannon]

This won't be popular but let's see what you all think

I don't want to wake at 5 and 6am.  I don't need to be up until 8am these days and I actually work late a lot of the time, that can sometimes be evenings as well and then my own admin at night.

But if I go to bed before 2am, you can bet I'll be awake at 5 or 6am, this then wipes me out for the day.  I don't feel right even in the morning yet I cannot go back to sleep. 

So I go to bed at 2am and then tend to sleep till 8am, but everyone tells me I go to bed way too late.

On days off I do sleep longer so obviously I need more sleep a lot of the time, but since peri started in 2020 I wake early.


I know some of you will think that 5 and 6am is fine and a lot of people have to be up then.  I used to be one of them but not now and it was never a natural time for me even then.

I won't be home from work until 9pm tomorrow and I can't go straight to bed when I get in, have to wind down. 

So to cap all this off I just saw a You Tube video with the heading Stop Waking at 6am.  I thought it would help me sleep longer but no, the man was talking about waking at 3am instead, that it's much better and you are more productive!  Well I'm sure that would work really well with my 9pm finish.

I despair    No doubt there will be all kinds of reactions to this but if anyone can tell me how to sleep more deeply, because that's what it boils down to, it would help.  I'm on Evorel Sequi and on the Estradiol only times I do sleep deeper and always after a fresh patch has been put on.  I suppose without that things could be worse 

3am start, good lord.

[K45]

Sleep, or lack thereof, seems to be a hot topic affecting so many women in perimenopause/menopause! Everyone is different but this is what seems to be working for me: tv off and reading a book, magnesium glycinate, sticking to same sleep/wake, limiting caffeine and if all else fails a strong antihistamine such as promethazine.

[jaypo]

I take camomile tablets,they're fab,you can get them from Health Aid but do remember as we age we don't need so much sleep,does it help in the winter when it's darker at all?

[bombsh3ll]

Have you considered micronised progesterone taken orally?

Many people feel this helps with sleep.

I haven't used this myself as I'm on a combined pill. I've always been a poor sleeper and take 7.5mg mirtazapine for this, which really helps.

[Dierdre]

If I got home from work at 5pm I wouldn't be going to bed until at least 10pm so your timing is correct going to bed at 2am if you're not finishing until 9.00pm.

Shift work is hard on the body clock at any age, male or female and is difficult to get into a sleep pattern if it changes regularly.  You have to change your sleep pattern to match your work pattern, whatever time it is.

[sheila99]

For me this sleep pattern was an oestrogen deficiency symptom and given that you sleep best on patch change day I think it is for you too. IIWY I'd try more oestrogen. Utrogestan does help most people sleep so worth a try (and if you increase oestrogen you'll probably be on it anyway) but it doesn't work for everyone, it actually makes mine worse.

[KaraShannon]

Sleep, or lack thereof, seems to be a hot topic affecting so many women in perimenopause/menopause! Everyone is different but this is what seems to be working for me: tv off and reading a book, magnesium glycinate, sticking to same sleep/wake, limiting caffeine and if all else fails a strong antihistamine such as promethazine.

I think also my own anxiety is at the root of it.  But pre peri if I was woken early in the morning by anything I would just turn over and go back to sleep.  A neighbour once asked me if another neighbour leaving early was waking me and I said I don't care about anyone waking me in the morning as I find it so easy to go back to sleep.

Now it's the complete opposite.  If I try to go back to sleep it would take 2 hours at least and then I'm supposed to be getting up. 

So it's a mixture of hormones and also anxiety that I will be woken.  Going to bed early makes me anxious as that means I'm more likely to be woken early by noises than if I'm exhausted by a 2am bed time 

And I suppose at the root of all that anxiety is more anxiety.  Because I have so little energy these days I can't afford to go without sleep like when I was younger and be full steam ahead regardless.

[KaraShannon]

I take camomile tablets,they're fab,you can get them from Health Aid but do remember as we age we don't need so much sleep,does it help in the winter when it's darker at all?

I don't really know I don't think it makes any difference whether it's dark or not.  Unfortunately I do need the extra sleep, just tend to be easily woken after 4 or 5 hours.  I'll look into the camomile tablets thanks jaypo.  I take stuff to knock me out, herbal sleepeaze (not the anti histamine one, I can't tolerate anti histamines) but that doesn't knock me out at night, it just gives me a hangover in the day (along with the lack of sleep) 

[KaraShannon]

Have you considered micronised progesterone taken orally?

Many people feel this helps with sleep.

I haven't used this myself as I'm on a combined pill. I've always been a poor sleeper and take 7.5mg mirtazapine for this, which really helps.

I've been given zoplicone which helps at night, but it seems to wear off after 4 or 5 hours.

Yes I've heard about progesterone, but I've noticed when I'm on my combined patch (which has norehisterone, a synthetic progesterone) that's when I start to wake up and feel as though I haven't been in a deep sleep.  It does make me more relaxed though, but then I want sleep more and it doesn't happen, so I have this weird lazy, relaxed feeling that never goes into deep sleep. 

[KaraShannon]

If I got home from work at 5pm I wouldn't be going to bed until at least 10pm so your timing is correct going to bed at 2am if you're not finishing until 9.00pm.

Shift work is hard on the body clock at any age, male or female and is difficult to get into a sleep pattern if it changes regularly.  You have to change your sleep pattern to match your work pattern, whatever time it is.

Thanks Dierdre, I was expecting loads of people jumping on saying I should be up at 5, (or is it 3 these days), I'm old enough to remember a time when 6am risers were the heros.  Now they are the laggers 

[KaraShannon]

For me this sleep pattern was an oestrogen deficiency symptom and given that you sleep best on patch change day I think it is for you too. IIWY I'd try more oestrogen. Utrogestan does help most people sleep so worth a try (and if you increase oestrogen you'll probably be on it anyway) but it doesn't work for everyone, it actually makes mine worse.

Thanks Sheila, I do seem to sleep better with oestrogen.  I noticed it with vagifem as well but unfortunately that seems to bring about migraine.  But for a while I would use vagifem on the night's where I really did not want to get woken.  Interesting.

I'm only on Estradiol 50 and I'm 54 now.  I did go up to 100 for a while but told estradiol levels too high.  I must go and have another check.

[Penguin]

Melatonin. 2mg prolonged release if your doctor will give you them. Safer than zoplicone which is very addictive but also, as you say, only give 4-5 hours sleep. You can also order the gummies from the US via biovea website - they are not expensive either. I get 8 hours sleep on then, whereas I was early waking like you. The only downside is vivid dreams which may be the melatonin but I'd take that over insomnia any day.

[Dandelion]

To me 5am and 6am, is too early, depending on what time you go to bed. 
2am is too late for bed, but I can see why you do as you don't want to be awake too early.
I am wondering if the circadian rhythm means we need to go to bed earlier to get our full sleep, as once I am awake, if I manage to go back to sleep, it's an unpleasant anxious sleep. They say sleep before midnight is better than starting to sleep after, but if this means you are waking too early, it sounds like the early awakenings need addressing.
I can see why you would be knackered by waking up at 5am and 6am.

But if I go to bed before 2am, you can bet I'll be awake at 5 or 6am, this then wipes me out for the day.  I don't feel right even in the morning yet I cannot go back to sleep. 

6hrs is not long enough, we are supposed to sleep 7-9hrs a night so our bodies can repair themselves, according to the sleep hygiene literature out there.
This is not much help for those who go to sleep, but wake up after only a small inadequate amount of sleep.
I always wonder how I can practice sleep hygiene adequately, if I cannot help waking too early.

As you sleep longer when on days off, I wonder if either work, or the fixed schedule of having to get up is causing more stress, thus affecting sleep on the days you have to work.

5 and 6am is fine for lot of people, who have to be up then, but, they may go to bed early and get their sleep quota.  I know a lady who does this.

I understand having to wind down after work.

I saw a YouTube video on CBT for insomnia and it said don't go to bed until you are tired, and don't lay in if you get up too early, and your sleep will fall back into it's natural pattern if you persevere, but it did not say what to do if you start to crash in the afternoon.
I don't know about you but afternoon naps/power naps made me feel more anxious, when I tried, I got anxious dropping off to sleep. I never had any of these sleep issues as a younger woman.

Sorry you are feeling despair.
I am glad you made this thread.
Maybe the issue is with the norethisterone in evorel sequi, my old school friend really struggled with that synthetic hormone and so do other women on here.
If it were me, I would look to going on a different type of progesterone and evorel only patch, or maybe, you need your oestrogen increasing.
I am not expert but you have my sympathy.