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[Optimist2021]

Hi there.

Without hrt, very sore boobs for weeks on end, before period that was a month late. No blood tests at sane time.

On estrogen and progesterone for two months , had two periods, (started on half pump and 100mg respectively), still got sore boobs but only for a few days.

Now I'm trying without any hrt for a week, am two weeks post period, and boobs swollen and sore, again.  Also a lot of cellulite type appearance over most of body, which could be fluid retention.

I've come off hrt for a while because of hypothyroidism. I want to objectively see how the hrt effects levels of thyroid panel.

So, some say it's the estrogen dominance causes sore swollen boobs, others say it's progesterone, others say it's not enough progesterone. The mind boggles and no blood tests are happening for estrogen or progesterone.

Ha! Thank you if you can help.

[Kathleen]

Hello Optimist2021 and welcome to the forum.

You pose a very interesting question and I wish I had the answer.

I am very post meno and using Sandrena gel for  oestrogen and Utrogestan for progesterone. I have noticed that I have vaginal dryness symptoms and breast tenderness symptoms which seem to come and go.  Obviously the dryness issues are due to low oestrogen but I am not so sure about the causes of breast tenderness, especially as I had this constantly when I was using a much higher dose of gel and it resolved when I lowered the dose. I also have mood changes and recently some headaches have returned.
This whole rollercoaster feels like different body parts are reacting to high and then low oestrogen throughout the day!

I am sorry that I can't be of more help and I am sure other ladies will be along soon to comment. I just wanted you to know that you are not the only one who is confused.

Take care.

K.

[CrispyChick]

I'm sure I read that estrogen causes tenderness to press straight on. Like all over.

Whereas prog tenderness is felt on the sides.

[bombsh3ll]

As someone who has experienced very high estrogen levels without progesterone (IVF) my vote is for estrogen.

That's not to say progesterone can't do this too, but physiologically estrogen would be expected to cause more swelling of breast tissue and general fluid retention.

If you are still having periods your own hormones are likely to be all over the place and high natural peaks of estradiol can be common in perimenopause.

I wouldn't keep chopping and changing with treatments like that though - it is advisable to just stick with a regime for at least 3 months (unless intolerable side effects).

You don't have to put up with all kinds of hormonal chaos - a low dose birth control pill taken continuously can be very helpful for shutting your own system down and replacing with a stable consistent dose of hormones every day.

Also there is little point having blood tests for estrogen or progesterone within the perimenopause - this is not clinically helpful and only tells you what they are at that particular moment - it is a moving target and doesn't inform decision making.

[sheila99]

Usually it's oestrogen. A few people (I'm one) get it from progesterone but I've always had it in the second part of my cycle. I think if progesterone affected you in this way you would probably already know about it. As it's happening now you're not on hrt I think you're having huge spikes of your own, as can happen in peri.

[joziel]

The best way to resolve this is just to continue to take the HRT. It is one of the known side effects of the hormonal changes and if you keep starting and stopping HRT, you are just adding to the fluctuations. After 2 months on HRT, you haven't even given your body enough time to get used to it before you've stopped it again...

[Hurdity]

Both hormones affect the breast in different ways so could be either. I have always had painful boobs during second part of my cycle and I thought this was actually one big characteristic of pms and that most women experience it to some extent? My boobs have become larger on HRT ie denser and more substantial like when fertile buit never painful during oestrogen only even when I've increased. Massive surges of both hormones like in pregnancy do affect the breasts.

Hurdity x

[Dazedandconfused]

Just to confuse things even more.  I have sore boobs, mainly the left one on the side but sometimes the right as well. This stopped when I came off HRT for a month. 

Then I had a Mirena fitted and now only use 1 pump of estrogel and it came back. Eight months in and no change.  Mammogram all clear and I'm on conti hrt, 7 years post meno.  My estrogel dose is low as I understand it so I really don't know what the answer is, sorry.

[Optimist2021]

Hello Optimist2021 and welcome to the forum.

You pose a very interesting question and I wish I had the answer.

I am very post meno and using Sandrena gel for  oestrogen and Utrogestan for progesterone. I have noticed that I have vaginal dryness symptoms and breast tenderness symptoms which seem to come and go.  Obviously the dryness issues are due to low oestrogen but I am not so sure about the causes of breast tenderness, especially as I had this constantly when I was using a much higher dose of gel and it resolved when I lowered the dose. I also have mood changes and recently some headaches have returned.
This whole rollercoaster feels like different body parts are reacting to high and then low oestrogen throughout the day!

I am sorry that I can't be of more help and I am sure other ladies will be along soon to comment. I just wanted you to know that you are not the only one who is confused.

Take care.

K.

Thank you Kathleen.  I'm suspecting the breast tenderness is estrogen dominance over progesterone, which in theory could happen no matter the estrogen levels high or low.

I stopped the estrogen a little while ago, then progesterone. Boobs sore all the time, so now I add back in progesterone only for a week, low dose.

Which might sound mad, but.....
I've been diagnosed and treated for low progesterone when I was in 30s, so it could be my body naturally makes enough estrogen to serve basic function, but too little progesterone.

If the breast soreness goes away, that will be an indication!  And I'll post here with my findings!

A blood test to see estrogens progesterone ratio would be good, but generally they are not funded and I am not meeting those private testing costs at the moment.

Thank you for your response. I hope you find your solutions x

[Optimist2021]

I'm sure I read that estrogen causes tenderness to press straight on. Like all over.

Whereas prog tenderness is felt on the sides.

Thank you Crispy Chick!  I think I've read that too!  It's definitely all over . Interesting. Thank you so much.

[Optimist2021]

As someone who has experienced very high estrogen levels without progesterone (IVF) my vote is for estrogen.

That's not to say progesterone can't do this too, but physiologically estrogen would be expected to cause more swelling of breast tissue and general fluid retention.

If you are still having periods your own hormones are likely to be all over the place and high natural peaks of estradiol can be common in perimenopause.

I wouldn't keep chopping and changing with treatments like that though - it is advisable to just stick with a regime for at least 3 months (unless intolerable side effects).

You don't have to put up with all kinds of hormonal chaos - a low dose birth control pill taken continuously can be very helpful for shutting your own system down and replacing with a stable consistent dose of hormones every day.

Also there is little point having blood tests for estrogen or progesterone within the perimenopause - this is not clinically helpful and only tells you what they are at that particular moment - it is a moving target and doesn't inform decision making.

Hi Bombshell, thank you. Estrogen makes sense .
Re blood tests, I can think of one utility. If I had blood tests on a very sore boobs day, it would show the estrogen progesterone ratio. Which would give another piece of data regarding what's causing the sore boobs.
I'm  not into birth control pills, though if things became intolerable, it's a great back up suggestion.
Thank you x

[Optimist2021]

Thanks everyone for your responses.
I was interested in opinions and experiences of estrogen or progesterone for soreness
I was not after advice on how I should or shouldn't take hrt. Those replies are good reads though. I'll make another post if I need that advice. Thank you for the  replies.

[AngelaH]

I've been diagnosed and treated for low progesterone when I was in 30s, so it could be my body naturally makes enough estrogen to serve basic function, but too little progesterone.

A blood test to see estrogens progesterone ratio would be good, but generally they are not funded and I am not meeting those private testing costs at the moment.

Hi Optimist,

It sounds so interesting, but when you were diagnosed with low progesterone it was NHS or a private doctor?

I had low progesterone levels from my 30s, but NHS doctors never suggested that, I had to put up with my symptoms until the age of 48, by that time list of the symptoms was so long, just unbelievable, and only when I developed heavy non stop bleedings for months with huge clots, NHS put me on progesterone, which stopped all the symptoms I had for decades, just overnight.

[joziel]

Interesting. Progesterone is only made if you ovulate, because it's made by the corpus luteum which is what's left after ovulation occurs. If you don't ovulate, you won't make any progesterone that cycle. I wonder why you weren't ovulating... ?

[Hurdity]

Re blood tests, I can think of one utility. If I had blood tests on a very sore boobs day, it would show the estrogen progesterone ratio. Which would give another piece of data regarding what's causing the sore boobs.

Hi
 
As far as I understand, unless there has been some new research, there is no magic ratio of oestrogen to progesterone that can explain symptoms of excess. Only when using HRT is the balance important - though the actual amounts are dependent on the dose prescribed, how much is absorbed and the response of the endometrium for each indiviuals woman to these doses. ie as a rule of thumb start with the licensed doses, and then be guided by bleeding.

Hurdity x